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In August of 2015 I was released as bishop, but my second counselor didn’t show up to be released. I was concerned about what he was going through. A few months before that meeting, Heath—my 2nd counselor—disclosed to me the faith struggle he was experiencing. He had been striving to put his doubts to rest and gain a new level of conviction to the restored gospel. I was even more shocked when he and his family removed their names from the rolls of the Church. Thankfully my friendship with Heath has continued. We have had many uplifting conversations over lunch. These discussions were so uplifting that Heath suggested I interview him for my podcast. He was mainly joking, but I liked the idea. It turned out to be a special experience for me. I have learned so much about faith and testimony, and what leaders need to be aware of when members in their ward doubt. I strongly encourage you to listen to the episode above and then share it with a leader and a friend.
Summary
Heath is an immigration attorney in Salt Lake City, Utah. He completed his undergraduate work at Brigham Young University-Idaho before graduating from the J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University. He became active in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a junior in high school and later served a mission to Ecuador. He has served as elders quorum president and most recently as second counselor in the bishopric when Kurt served as bishop. He, his wife, and their three kids stopped attending church the day the bishopric was dissolved and in June 2016 chose to remove their names from church records. In this podcast, Heath tells his story of the doubts he had, his struggles with uncertainty, the day he finally got an answer, and how he has begun to feel more at peace since discovering others like him who are struggling with similar issues but who believe in the Church and are still able to serve. Kurt also explores one of the most difficult questions facing leaders in the Church: How to encourage individuals who are struggling in their faith—in their quest for certainty—without discouraging them or putting too much pressure on them to get there.
Highlights
- 8:30 Began to have concerns about certain aspects of church history in 2006 as a student at BYU-I
- Began reading Rough Stone Rolling, a biography of Joseph Smith by author Richard Bushman
- 11:20 Took a class in law school entitled “Joseph Smith and the Law” that caused further doubts on what he had read
- 13:45 Soon after law school, took a job at a non-profit in Salt Lake City and was called to serve as Elders Quorum President
- Became consumed with the goal of extinguishing all doubts in order to feel like a more effective leader
- Continually prayed, fasted, attended the temple and did all of the things he was taught to do in order to receive the testimony he desired
- Feelings of uncertainty intensified when he was called as Second Counselor in the bishopric, as he felt he was supposed to know all of the answers whenever there was a question posed to him
- Desired to have the kind of testimony Elder Holland speaks of, one that is able to warm the hands of others, but got to a point where he could no longer say that Joseph Smith was a prophet.
- 24:00 As he wanted to know more and more if Joseph was a prophet, and feeling like he couldn’t get an answer or couldn’t recognize it, he became increasingly depressed. Questioned if the problem was him. Was he not good enough?
- Received an answer one Sunday afternoon that provided relief for a time. That relief was gradually replaced with thoughts of, “if it’s not true then what’s the point in living?” and he felt like would have rather been dead than have the church not be true. Heath and his family did not attend church again after that.
- 30:00 Kurt and Heath begin to explore what Kurt could have done as his leader.
- Do I have any Heath’s in my ward or stewardship? What am I going to do about it?
- How can I raise my kids to believe in the principles of the gospel and understand the process of building a testimony without increasing the stress that Heath felt as they go through this process? How can I help individuals in my stewardship to do the same?
- 33:15 It must come from a place of love
- 35:30 Heath began listening to various podcasts addressing LDS issues, and learned there were others like him who had doubts
- 40:00 Found people who had similar issues with church history but still believe in the church and are still able to serve, which helps him feel like he could find a place in the church again someday
- 42:30 How can we as leaders help people who are struggling before they get to the point of resignation or inactivity?
- 45:55 How do we encourage individuals to keep pushing towards testimonies of conviction while at the same time helping them to just step back and take a break for a bit, maintaining a healthy balance? (“Anti-Fragile” by Nassim Nicholas Taleb)
- 48:05 “I was not comfortable with uncertainty.” If members can’t say they are comfortable with uncertainty, there may be a problem.
- 54:30 What if it really is just about Christ?
- 59:00 Heath’s current testimony is one of hope. A hope that there God exists, that Christ is there and that they hear his prayes. A hope that families are forever and that there is something after this life. A hope that these things are true.
- 60:20 What Kurt has learned through his relationship with Heath
- The paradox of bold testimony and certitude is for some who hear it it can build and strengthen while at the same time it may alienate others.
Takeaway questions for leaders to consider:
- When individuals who crave certitude and the same bold testimony that we feel we may have don’t feel like they’ve gotten the answers they want, how can we help them to step back for a few moments and give their quest for certitude a break?
- How can we challenge, encourage and push them in their quest for certitude without diminishing their concerns, discouraging them or putting too much pressure on them to get there?
Links
Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, by Richard Bushman Secular Buddhism Podcast Why Your “Without a Shadow of a Doubt” Testimony Is Hurting Your Leadership Elder Holland Clip Read the TRANSCRIPT of this interview
Thanks for this interview!!! I´m one of those who have experienced a faith journey and reevaluated their beliefs. I wish every member of the church was as inclusive and open to talking about this like the interviewer! In my case, and most cases I think, my 8 siblings are still believers, as well as my parents. Thankfully I have been blessed with a very supportive wife, who has walked with me these last 3 years. However damaged our relationship as a marriage, we are still fighting to remain together.
This interview is fresh air for my soul.
Cheers,
Alex.
Alex,
Thank you for your comment and your continue fight. Maybe sharing this interview with your family members and your church leaders would begin a similar discussion.
Let me know how it goes.
Do I have any Heath’s in my ward or stewardship?
How about, “am I ‘Heath’ in my ward”?
As you so easily demonstrate, being in a leadership position does not mean you have unwavering faith. Even as the Ward Mission Leader, I routinely have crises of faith. I still hang on, but at some point I fear that I’ll be just like Heath…
Kyle, I can’t imagine what you are going through. I hope this interview helped you step back from the quest for certainty and appreciate the goodness and beauty in the Church. I would suggest you send this interview to your bishop and then have a conversation about it.
I wish you luck and please let me know how we can help.
Love seeing the topics posted up here. Heath’s story is pretty common I would guess? I think doubt should be almost encouraged. It’s difficult to do that through church and keep people engaged enough to get their own personal confirmation of Christ. In my mind we should question and ponder things. It’s not about what you do but what you actually know and how you’ve lived your life honestly. It’s kind of following the scientific method, I guess? Truth is truth once found. Even true science is questioned and should be. Why not religious topics?
I respect Heath and those like him. I hope they question and ponder and come to the same conclusions I have about the church and Christ. My reality is that there is only one perfect being that’s lived on the earth. Whomever you are, you will stumble and should stumble. The stumbles and temptations are what make you strong and committed.
At times I wonder how Christ was able to be that committed and then I go back and read the gospels. He had knowledge we don’t have. I don’t know that any of us could do the things he did and how he did them but he had insight we don’t have at this time. We should stumble and learn. We learn a lot by struggling.
I believe some of the best advice above is just do what you can and what you’re able to do. Do what works for you. None of us can be “all in” all the time. Take a break if you need it.
Much respect to those struggling, whether visibly or not, and I wish them success. I hope all have the perspective of Heath. Not wanting to press their perspectives on people but willing to share if asked. We came here to live our life and be “imperfect”. Making ourselves better will take time and there are many roads to get where we need to go. Some of us choose the rocky and challenging roads and other choose a highway where we can travel along with others
Heath, that is one of the most amazingly beautiful, authentic, and humble testimonies I’ve ever heard. Thank you for showing how big your brave is through this process and quest.
I currently serve as the first counselor in a bishopric in American Fork, UT. I personally have gone through a faith crisis (2012-ish), which I now consider a faith transition (at the time it was crisis, but I see it more healthy now).
TLDR; My opinion is that Heath would have had a good chance of staying if he had a friend to validate him and share with him (like a Bill Real). The answer is not to shelf his concerns but work through them in a healthy way.
I both enjoyed this conversation and was frustrated at the same time. Being on the other side of a faith transition I have much empathy for those that are misunderstood while in the crisis stage, as Heath was. Based on what I heard his pain and ultimately his leaving the church was due to him working (alone) in the paradigm of the False Dilemma that LDS culture and some of its leaders support.
Our meetings are composed of mostly faith-promoting stories and experiences. I would probably restate that as belief-promoting, but that is a discussion for another time. Any discussion of doubt is usually avoided or repressed. I am not pointing fingers just stating what I see as the status.
As far as leaders go, Gordon B. Hinckley stated it this way in the April 2003 General Conference, “Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it’s a fraud. There’s no middle ground. It is the Church and Kingdom of God or it is nothing.” Sorry President Hinckley, I understand your perspective and have great respect for much of what you have taught, but this is not one of them. Rewind back to my missionary days and I would have said amen.
So Heath’s path here is not the question. The question is what are we going to do about it.
Below, is the last paragraph in the book Planted, by Patrick Mason. This is what is needed.
“In addition to education, we have various layers, networks, and structures of personal ministry to support each of us in our various needs. We are marvelous at mobilizing when someone faces challenges to their physical health—it is a true wonder to behold the Mormon machine spring into action when a ward member goes on bed rest or is diagnosed with cancer. Those exact same resources can be brought to bear, though more quietly, for those with doubts and or some other “sorrow that the eye can’t see.” Family, friends, home and visiting teachers, Relief Society and quorum presidencies, bishoprics, and stake leaders can’t cure cancer, but they can provide support, relief, comfort, strength, a listening ear, and love. Most people with honest questions and struggles—which, to be clear, are not a form of cancer—want and need no more nor less. Like Job’s friends, we can minister to one another, even if a silent solidarity is the best we can muster when simple answers won’t do. We can, as the revelation states, seek learning and wisdom in the best books—including but by no means limited to the scriptures—so as to succor those among us who have not faith. This is not rocket science. This is not beyond the scope of our capabilities. This is not just the job of church historians, bishops, Relief Society presidents, and General Authorities. This is the baptismal covenant of every member of the Church of Jesus Christ—“to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; . . . to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort”—not to bury our head in the sand or ignore the problem in hopes that it will go away. We “stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places” when we do the works of mercy and ministry that are in fact the work of God (Mosiah 18:8–9). Through our service to others, facilitated and enhanced by our membership in the church, we remain connected to Christ, the True Vine. In him and his church we remain firmly planted.”
LOVED this podcast! EXCELLENT! Heath’s experience likely isn’t like that of many others. BUT – something it is important for ALL of us to remember (leaders, members, family, etc) is that we ALL need to love and be patient with each other (and ourselves) always – like the Savior loves all of us – with all of the different places we are in our experience and testimonies of the gospel. Becoming comfortable with uncertainty will help many….
I think you might be surprised that Heath’s experience is not at all uncommon. Although, it probably is uncommon, unfortunately, that not many leaders try to understand, as the bishop/SP (of this podcast) has, and he has my utmost respect.
Kurt – I first want to thank you not only for being willing to even talk about this on a podcast, but just how you interacted with Heath. Even though I am no longer a believer, your podcast is one of the few that I can actually listen to. I feel you are really being honest – willing to say there are problems and work to fix them. I think much of the angry ex-mo comes from those that are believers not being willing to budge an inch and say that the church has any problems. I feel like I could have a good conversation with you even though we see some things different. The church needs more leaders like you that have loving confidence that doesn’t fall apart when someone no longer feels they believe.
I would also like to thank Heath for being willing to come and discuss this. I am sure it was hard.
I am a “Heath” also. I came to believe the church isn’t what it claims to be while serving as a counselor in a bishopric – in fact across 2 different bishops. I loved serving and serving others.
I think I only have one issue with what was said. When Heath said he suddenly had the thought, “the church isn’t true” and he had calmness – I think Kurt said something to the effect of that was the easier road to take and caused less stress. That was not my experience. I vividly remember driving on a road all by myself having just dropped my kid off at EFY. For the first time I was able to HONESTLY ask, “what if it isn’t true?” BOOM. I think I was forever changed in a single second. It wasn’t a matter of it being the easy road. In fact I felt like I had no direction – what was I supposed to do. And it didn’t eliminate stress – it compounded it. My emotion was a sadness beyond even my parents passing away. Almost everything tied back to what the church had taught me. I almost had to pull off the road due to my eyes tearing up.
After a few emotionally devastating weeks (often called the “dark night of the soul”) where I begged God to give me some direction, I decided I needed to dig in a bit more. I read much of the apologist books, websites, and podcasts, but the more I read the further I felt like Mormonism wasn’t of God – at least no more than other honest men and women in many other religions. I took almost 3 years (still in bishoprics and other priesthood quorum leadership) of study before I concluded enough to tell my wife I no longer considered myself a believer. I feel no need to remove my name from the church and I do want the door open to come back if God so directs me. I am open if God were to tell me.
I do have to say I feel more spiritual and closer to God than I have before. I no longer fear what “level of heaven” I am achieving. I just feel that I just need to help as many people in as many ways as I can and God will take care of me after this life. Everything else is a minor detail.
Once again, thanks Kurt. I think you are a minority in church leadership that can give a respectful person that honestly does not believe the same respect that you want to have from them. Please keep being an example.
Thanks for your comment and I am glad you appreciated this interview. Let me first apologize for my misspeak. I definitely didn’t mean to minimize the impact of these personal situations. I would never want to claim leaving the Church is the easier road. It was a raw and very difficult episode to navigate. Thank you for allowing me to clarify.
And maybe consider joining your local ward on Sunday. You don’t have to believe again or “come back” but just be with us. If you don’t feel comfortable at your local ward, you can come to mine. 🙂
I even applaud this response to my comment. What a loving response. I don’t think you have anything to apologize for. I was just telling how in my case “that moment” wasn’t a huge relief, but a let down.
And thanks for the invite. I love my ward and my bishop and he is a good friend (and the previous 2 bishops are the same). I still attend church and at this moment, partially to support my wife so she doesn’t sit in church alone, and I still hold a prominent calling in the ward. Only my wife and 2 other people know I am not a believer. I am worried about coming out and the affect this would have on my wife and kids as far as how they would be treated.
The absolute best podcast you have ever done. I have heard them all and I like so many.
So real and raw. I love this good Brother. Prayers for you in this struggle.
I also love the last part that our friendship with anyone is not based on their membership in the church.
This was the best. Thank you for not trying to control his response and having faith in allowing him to answer honestly. And I thank him for being so respectful to what I believe. So rare to have people who have resigned and have a real conversation.
No judgement. Just love!
Absolutely beautiful.
Thanks Jason! I’m glad you enjoyed it. I hope you share it with others.
This episode was one of the best you have done. Not that the others weren’t fantastic. There is not one of us who is not dealing with this issue of doubt and uncertainty either in those we serve with or within ourselves. I loved the statement, “What if it really is just about Christ?”
This episode left me with a lot of things to ponder. Thank you.
As a bishop of nearly five years my overarching take-away from this discussion is there’s room for everyone. I hear and see that more and more and that’s a wonderful thing! I’ve had very beautiful and spiritual conversations with ward members who are all at different points on their path of faith. In fact, one that touched me most deeply was a young man who made the decision to leave the church. If there’s a good way to do that I believe we both would agree that’s what happened. I’ve likewise seen people return in some very uncharacteristic ways. Some of those times I got too caught up in the “how” it was happening instead of more importantly focusing “what” was happening. Thanks to you and Heath for this honest conversation. I do have at least one certitude – there’s room for everyone.
I love this comment. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
Thank you for this. As a former member of the Lee Ward let me share a few thoughts.. I moved from Long Island NY , in the summer of 2013 from a strong Ward that I attended for over 23 years, full of uncertainty. Not sure where I was going to live, work or much else. All I knew was that God wanted me to be here. I moved to Downtown Salt Lake and attended a small Branch that accepted me from day one, helped me feel welcomed. Then I moved the to Lee Ward area, more uncertainty, another new ward. I had a lot of trouble feeling like I belonged. Heath Becker was one of the only few people who actually reached out to me. When he asked me how I was, it was genuine. I heard Heath’s testimony loud and clear, before he was asked to give one. I love that even leaders struggles, makes them more real and like the rest of us. Thank you Heath for being true to yourself and genuine.
Just as I started to feel somewhat comfortable in the Lee Ward, I moved just a few blocks, and found myself in a different Ward and Stake all together, yet in the same building.. felt very odd to me.
I wish I had had more time to establish better friendships in the Lee Ward..
What a great idea for a podcast! I enjoyed listening to the entire thing. I really, really admire and respect that you care enough about Heath, and so many others like him, to at least want to understand.
You said something with which I completely agreed: “Certitude is not the goal.”
And, rather than thinking or worrying about what you could have done to stop Heath from resigning, or from hurting, look at the problem as a whole–ours (Mormons) is a culture of needing to feel certain. I can’t tell you how frustrating it has been for me to want to have these discussions of vulnerability and uncertainty, within the confines of the church walls. But my ward will not abide. And so, I’ve stopped attending at all, although I still take my home teaching calling seriously. I believe in that program.
I no longer hold belief in the church, or its many claims of exclusivity. Like Heath, though, I can see the value of Mormonism, many of its beliefs, and especially its local ward organization. How great it is to know all of my neighbors!
Anyway, I don’t think you need to do anything to help someone like me or Heath. The culture has to change, and that’s going to have to come from the top. I don’t expect it will. The organization would crumble if it did.
Fabulous podcast. My husband and I kept talking about how similar this is to my story which I even shared in sacrament meeting today. My favorite quote of all time is “Just because we’re baptized at the age of 8, doesn’t mean we’re not converts.” I was born and raised in the church and not until after 5 kids did I start to have my trial of faith 6 yrs ago. We’d just moved into a new ward and that’s when I questioned everything I’d ever been taught right down to if there was even a God, is Jesus Christ really my Savior and what does that even mean. That was my biggest question. I felt so lost and very alone. Luckily I had a few friends to ask questions and just talk things through. They didn’t have all the answers, they were just there and didn’t think less of me. The only thing that kept me going to church was the idea of what if I was wrong. I didn’t want to mess up my kids. Then, being in a new ward, I got called to teach RS-just 1 lesson a month. Out of habit, I said yes to the calling, went home and cried and said to my Heavenly Father, “Seriously? I don’t even know if I believe you exist anymore and you want me to teach?” Each month, I studied harder than I’d ever done in my life trying to get that 1 40 min. lesson prepped. I thought God would answer my prayers with a huge aha moment or that at least my lesson would go smoothly. But no matter how hard I’d studied, it would still seem like it was a mess so I studied even more the next month. For the first time in my life, I truly learned what it meant to study and pray and took baby steps back to being ok again. It was what I needed to get back on my feet. Fast forward 5 years, I got called into the stake primary and still had just a basic testimony. Then a new stake presidency comes in and wants auxiliary members to speak with the high counselors on high counsel Sundays. The topics started out very basic-quality prayer, quality scripture study, etc. I kept trying to write talks that sounded like the typical sacrament meeting talks with a whole bunch of quotes, copying conference talks and adding some thoughts in here and there. But those talks would never come together. That’s when I felt inspired to just share my story. Shared that just because I’m in this stake calling, doesn’t mean I have this burning testimony. It’s still growing with lots of questions. One of the months when I was really struggling with prepping a talk, I walked in on Pres. Bednar’s last question at the face to face event. He was asked “Did you ever have any doubts about what you know to be true and how did you overcome them?” I LOVED his answer and I share it with everyone I can. He said, he’s “asked lots of questions and still has lots of questions. The gospel is about asking, seeking, knocking, learning, growing, repenting and improving. Keep pressing forward. The honest intellectual inquiry never ends.” That was so very comforting to hear coming from an apostle. These questions are ok to have. That’s how we learn. When we’re not questioning and searching, we’re just coasting which I’ve done most of my life and find myself doing when I’m not being pushed by a calling. After each time I spoke, I was amazed at how many people came up to me afterwards telling me that talk was for them. They needed to know they weren’t alone. There are so many people out there struggling but feel they can’t say anything. Thank you for this podcast. Thank you for sharing your story Heath.
In one week I listened to Heath’s interview and I also learned of a former ward member who is on her way out of the church. I also watched the Face To Face with Studio C cast and heard cast members’ comments about how each of us is unique, and the gospel will look different on each of us; we should never compare our testimony to another’s because they are unique, too.
I decided to speak to our youth about testimonies for 5th Sunday and told them a shortened version of Heath’s experience. Then we talked about how a church based on the Savior’s teaching should never make you feel like you have to lie about who you are. Integrity is always a critical part of following the Spirit and following the Savior. We talked about a great testimony that one of our young women gave at girls’ camp, where she admitted the trials she was going through and said how much she hoped the gospel was true, but she couldn’t give an “I know” testimony at that time. We talked about testimonies coming “in due time”, at their own pace, the way God has planned for us.
I hope the youth in my ward know that there is always a place for them, and there is always time to work on their testimonies. Thanks for the inspiration for this lesson, Kurt and Heath.
I appreciate the honesty and forthrightness of the gentleman in this interview. Understanding and assisting those who have doubts or struggle to believe is an important element of leadership in the LDS Church. That he and his entire family stopped attending essentially together suggests deeper challenges that go well beyond his own concerns about Church history or his testimony.
The question that came to my mind is, why was he not so honest and forthright with himself and with his bishop back when it would have made a difference? His decision to continue to serve in a leadership calling when he could not honestly qualify for a temple recommend (which appears to have been the case long before the issue came to a head near the end of the bishop’s term of office) was dishonest and amounts to priestcraft – that is, he was serving to maintain outward appearances rather than to serve God.
The sin of pride comes in many forms, and priestcraft is not always about financial gain.
All that said, the solution is the Atonement of Christ. We all sin, and church leaders make plenty of mistakes that come from being human. If you want to build your testimony, repent and seek forgiveness of your sins.
Sin is the door cracked open that allows the adversary in to attack our faith and our testimony. Doubt and disbelief where there once was faith and testimony is likely a symptom of unresolved sin, and the biggest unresolved sin that bedeviled the Nephites in the Book of Mormon is pride. That fact is equally true for us today.
Sorry – just can’t agree with all of this…
From Elder Uchtdorf, “The search for truth has led millions of people to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, there are some who leave the Church they once loved. One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave? Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church. In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.”
A wonderful member of my ward recently returned to church activity and the temple. Her note to me as her bishop is insightful – “What an amazing ward we have. I felt such a strong Spirit there with my sisters last night! The kind if meeting that you wish could last forever. And it WILL now, won’t it? Thanks for your patience in this long crooked road back again to where I belong to where my heart just sings with joy.”
Labeling those who have doubts or questions or whose road back is long and crooked as “sinful” is very exclusive, discouraging and not in keeping with prophetic counsel. I refer again to Elder Uchtdorf’s words: “If you expect to find perfect people here, you will be disappointed. But if you seek the pure doctrine of Christ, the word of God “which healeth the wounded soul,” and the sanctifying influence of the Holy Ghost, then here you will find them. In this age of waning faith–in this age when so many feel distanced from heaven’s embrace–here you will find a people who yearn to know and draw closer to their Savior by serving God and fellowmen, just like you. Come, join with us!”
Let’s do our best to be those messengers of, “…the pure doctrine of Christ” and “the word of God ‘which healeth the wounded soul.'” Only then will we find heart’s willing to sing with joy with us.
B-daddy, it was not my intent to label those who have doubts or are struggling as sinful. If that is your impression, then the problem is at my end – my comment wasn’t clear.
What I focused on is that the sin of pride can lead to the symptoms that the subject of this interview experienced, and can ultimately lead a church member away from the gospel and into inactivity. There are many ways that the adversary can get at faithful church members – this is simply one to be aware of.
His decision to maintain outward appearances related to his leadership position when he knew that he could not qualify for a temple recommend remains the bis issue for me. That is dishonest and it sure looks like a form of priestcraft – both serious sins that could easily be at or near the root of his challenges related to the church and his testimony.
We can and must love the sinner, but to not acknowledge the sin and counsel repentance leaves the local leader in the same bad place as the member.
After reading your somewhat clarification on why you were insinuating preistcraft, I think I get A BIT of where you were coming from. If you think he held the position in the bishopric like a badge of honor, then I get you. I guess I came from a perspective that I didn’t really see being in the bishopric in this way. I LOVED my bishop and I wanted very much to lessen his load AND to serve others. I think I can honestly say that was my motivation (and honestly not to look like a bumbling fool in the calling).
But I will still say that the comments are accusing him of sinning where I don’t really see sin. I see a struggle with faith. If you don’t see a difference between the two – we are worlds apart on this topic.
May the Lord be with each of us and guide us.
Wow. It amazes me that you are so willing to make such harsh judgments about someone and their spiritual worthiness based on an appx. 60 minute podcast interview.
With all due respect, thank you for providing such a stark contrast to Kurt’s attitude and Christlike example. As Hugh B. Brown said, men came memorize much and learn nothing.
Best wishes.
After reading this comment it makes me conclude the author has made an assumption about how Heath answered temple recommend questions. I don’t view the temple recommend questions as necessarily requiring “yes” and “no” answers. In temple recommend interviews I have been “let through” with answers such as “I strive/desire to believe”. I feel anxiety toward recommend interviews because I don’t have the “I know” type of testimony. I’m concerned my hesitancy to say “I know” will be used to restrict temple access. I’ve had some bishops who let me get a recommend because they felt the temple would be so helpful to an strengthening me.
Wow. I have been so happy with not only the interview with how Kurt interacted with Heath, but most of the comments.
I think it is obvious just listening to conference talks that people doubting their beliefs and leaving the church is a significant issue in the church today. That I can agree on.
But I don’t get how the fact that Heath’s family stopped attending show, “deeper challenges”. I don’t get it. If he comes to the conclusion that the church isn’t what it says it is, why would he not stop attending?
And as to why did he keep serving even when he was working through issues? Because we are told to “doubt our doubts” and “our testimonies don’t need to be this tall”. If the church did come out and say, if you have a concern one day on anything that makes you say you can’t answer every single temple recommend question then please get released ASAP then bishops would be scrambling to fill callings. Then once again a huge jump into “priestcraft”?? WHAT? When I search LDS.org for priestcraft I am pointed to a talk that quotes 2 Nephi 26:29, “… priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion”. I don’t see where Heath was doing anything along those lines. And if you go with the more general definition of trying to make money off religion I can’t see where Heath has done anything along those lines.
I for one have served for years TRYING to make the church work for me AND because I love serving and helping others. That can be separate from the church’s teaching being true or not. These statements come off very condescending to someone that has cried night after night for years in prayer asking for God to help make this work.
Pride – I disagree that Heath is prideful, but I can say I can see where this might be how you see it. Over-reactionary by so quickly resigning – yes. I don’t see him knocking on peoples door trying to get them to see the way he thinks – which is what missionaries do.
Then invoking the Atonement? Go ahead and throw a few stones why don’t you? What does Heath need to repent of? I can tell you that if the church is going to need leaders that handle people going through faith/belief crisis, this attitude WILL GO NOWHERE AND WILL PUSH PEOPLE OUT. Go read Patrick Mason’s book “Planted” (it is from Deseret Books, so it isn’t “anti-Mormon”) and get at least a bit of empathy for the hell that people are going through when they have a faith crisis. I for one can tell you it was more heartbreaking than my parents passing away.
Sorry Kurt if I am going overboard on the comments. I know you didn’t make the comment and I will commend you again for the love you showed for Heath in the interview. THAT is what is needed. It seemed like this podcast and the comments were making forward progress on a critical item for people on BOTH sides of the issue and this comment has made me almost lose faith that anything can improve with how the church treats those that question. I couldn’t let it go without saying this method is going to fail. I am doing it a bit to vent, but more so to say, “Church that I love – please stop! Show some love and concern, not shame.”
A Happy Hubby +1
Thank you so much for being real and having this discussion publicly!
“What if it really is just about Christ?”
And we ALL say, Yes! That’s what it’s all about!
Then we go opposite directions.
One group off to push the truth claims: First Vision, literal plates and Nephites, angel commanding polygamy, priesthood conferred by the literal laying on of dead apostles’ hands, etc. We have to believe that to be legit members of Christ’s restored church, have access to ordinances, and basic comfort in the culture.
The other group goes off to point at how that has “nothing to do with Christ,” and imply that his life and work are being deliberately co-opted by a misguided church.
We can all do better. But if the question is what the church and its leaders can do, I think we must step deemphasize truth claims, stop dissecting one prophets life under a microscope and zoom out to the big picture.
So if there’s still a class at J. Reuben Clark law school about Joseph Smith and the law, we’ve got a ways to go.
Also, by focusing on the church history aspect of “faith crises” – and by not preparing Mutual-age kids in seminary to deal with the tremendously persuasive arguments against the very existence of God and a real person anything like the Christ we teach – we turn out a membership of very brittle faith and narrow views.
Fair enough. I stand properly counseled. I appreciate your thoughts.
What an amazing podcast episode. And I think your friendship, and obvious trust Heath has in you Kurt, is what allowed this interview to be so raw and respectful at the same time.
I’ve had a couple of friends leave the church in the past couple years. I’m still friends with them, but we avoid talking about the church. It’s a sensitive topic.
I do believe that Heavenly Father is merciful and loving. I also believe that the objective of this life is about BECOMING a celestial type person. There are MANY “celestial” type persons who are not a part of our religion. Some people can do it without subscribing to any particular religion.
Heavenly Father will sort things out in the end and only He can judge a man’s heart. So in the meantime, we need to withhold our judgement and increase our love.
But one thing I will say. I’m so grateful that this church was restored with the Book of Mormon. It’s “my” proof that I can hold in my own hands and read with my own eyes. And when I study that book, the Holy Ghost tells me it’s true.
And even though I’m aware of the other seemingly conflicting stuff, I don’t worry about it because my testimony is rooted in the Book of Mormon itself.
After listening to this podcast I was in a bit of a quandary about how I felt about all that was said. First, HUGE kudos to Heath for his courage to be so open about his journey and HUGE accolades to Kurt for taking this journey with him and opening it up to us to hear. I have such admiration for both of you. My quandary was 2 fold, how could I help or encourage the “Heaths” that may be put in my path and second, why was my journey of faith different? I suspect there are lots of reasons why since Father as a perfect plan for each of His children. There is no exact formula in traversing a faith crisis (or a faith bump in the road), but I think a few things need to be remembered….it’s a “faith” crisis, so to come out of it, we need do include faith in the journey. Thinking of Enos and others we read about in the scriptures, they moved forward (faith) even when they questioned. For some it may require praying all day and all night, for others i may just be the faith and willingness to do that if necessary. I think it’s also key to have trusted conversations with the right people, like Heath did with Kurt, to be vulnerable in sharing your concerns. If we stay in our closet praying for help, but don’t go out where Father can send help, it makes it hard for us to sometimes learn/hear what He’s trying to tell us. As leaders, I think it’s important to do more listening and loving than talking and only give advise when the Spirit clearly has prompted that advice. We’re so blessed to have the Spirit to help us, so being faithful helps others and also qualifies us for inspiration. I’ve pondered on this a lot this weekend and have seen Father’s hand in giving me insight on how to help and also the importance of keep asking and listening. Kurt, I’m sending a separate email with a podcast idea.
Excellent interview! Thank you Heath for being willing to share your experience . My ex-husband left the church after years of struggle. It seemed to me he mostly looked for reasons to go instead of stay like Heath searched for although he never let me in to his struggle enough to know. I was hoping to find out his wife’s feelings and her reasons for leaving also. As a Relief Society president now, his spiritual struggles and departure from the church has given me some perspective and I try to be more understanding when i see this doubt in those around me. I know they are real and extremely difficult. I absolutely agree we need to be ok with not knowing it all and not trying to appear like we do. We are all human and we can share our doubts and imperfections. Really fabulous, thanks Heath for sharing and best wishes to you. God bless.
“Living with ambiguity is a form of intellectual honesty, of
humility. It is only when we admit that we don’t know that we
are receptive to what lessons may be taught. In some strange
way, it also brings an inner peace since we are no longer
fighting reality to maintain our inner fantasies on how things
should be. While I am characterizing it as an intellectual
process, it also has spiritual implications, since only an open
mind is capable of hearing God.”
— Andy Piereder (on Eyring-L)
One of my LDS friends has a voice similar to Heath’s. And this friend is a deep-thinker, true intellectual who also has his own history of doubts. That made this interview to sound really personal to me.
Thank you both, Kurt and Heath, for being open.
That was really powerful.
I read the transcript and just wanted to say, Sometimes people need time away from the church to Appreciate what it does and How true it is.. I will use myself as an example. I spent 14 years away not living the right lifestyle expected of a good mormon There was a reason the term jack mormon was invented… But i do believe in the church and the atonement and what the church is for.. Now saying that, People have to realize even in History that God is trying to work through Us Human(imperfect) beings. So Some leaders will be great and some so-so. It is up to you individually to Read the book of mormon and study The bible and gods words and make up your own mind. If you 100 percent try to rely on others You will fail. So now that i got that off my chest. I thought it was a great podcast and Hope Heath Receives his Answers he so desperately desires.
Heath’s testimony was amazing. Hope jumped out at me. Hope is the beginning of the journey to receive that sure witness.
I loved this interaction. I felt the love the two of you have for one another as I listened to this podcast. As I prepare to participate in Trek in just a few days, I have prayed to know what to study and how to be best prepared to serve the youth who will be assigned to our family. This podcast provided some clarity.
Thank you.
I just want to say as I read Heath’s testimony, I felt the Spirit so strongly. I felt his sincerity and was surprised to find myself wiping my eyes because I don’t even know this man, but know the Lord does and that He loves him. And that it’s okay to not have certitude. Even the scriptures keep exhorting us to believe and exercise hope and a particle of faith. My heartfelt plea is for him to feel his Heavenly Father’s love for Him. It IS all about Christ in the end.
I don’t know where Heath is in his journey, but his words made an impact on me today. Hope he and his family are doing well 🙂