Norm Hill worked for Exxon Mobile for 25 years and then for Reliant Energy as the vice president of Human Resources. He served as the mission president of the Ghana Accra Mission, temporarily including the Sierra Leone Freetown Mission, and is the author of What They Don’t Teach You at the MTC.
Norman Hill


6:00 Getting from an application to an idea; example of identifying competencies from Preach My Gospel and creating a self-assessment and training program for missionaries; example of creating reverse dinner appointments for missionaries; example of the innovation in missionary work
11:00 Applying general principles: the same principles apply to virtual teaching
15:15 Getting past the creative barrier to do something different; example of air conditioning in church buildings
17:00 Example of basketball courts in Ghana: applications can be customized without compromising gospel principles
19:35 Design Thinking focus on problem solving together

  1. Empathy
  2. Defining: gathering good information; example of self-assessment for teachers
  3. Ideating
  4. Creating a prototype
  5. Measuring your success
  6. Experimenting
  7. Improving

24:00 Information leads to inspiration: identifying local/individual circumstances where an organization can make changes to lift to a higher ground; example of using ministering brothers and sisters to gather information
28:20 How do you know you’re gathering the right data? We have basic gospel principles and structures for guidance
29:30 Example of effective virtual teaching

  • Asking “what” and “how” to get good information
  • Look for themes
  • Bring information to a council/quorum and seek inspiration and revelation

34:20 Example of request for a hospital in Ghana and recognition of the high number of people receiving financial assistance
38:35 Example of more men than women being baptized in West Africa and recognition of the need for literacy training for women
43:20 Brainstorming using a facilitator and reframing the problem; example from Tom Sawyer: redefining to change perspectives
47:55 “Too often problem solving is a solution in search of a problem” as opposed to gathering information first
48:30 Are there other ways of defining the problem? Example of slow elevator/impatient people problem; example of missionaries teaching starting with the fruits of the gospel and moving back to the doctrine
54:30 Reframing the problem of making connections during isolation; example of how church members connected during “the freeze” in Ghana; example of Sierra Leone during the Ebola epidemic
1:03:00 Applying the process: mindset of testing/observing and being willing to experiment outside of your comfort zone
1:09:50 Adjustments and guard rails: example of New Orleans bridge
1:12:40 The new normal: what are we learning about ourselves that we can take with us?


What They Don’t Teach You at the MTC, by Norman Hill


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00:00:00 – 00:05:09

Welcome back to another episode of the leading saints. Podcast if you’ve enjoyed content on this podcast. It’s important that. I tell you about the leading saints newsletter that we send out every week this newsletter keeps you up to date on all the current leading saints content releases including podcasts articles online events and even live events. That might be happening in your own area in this newsletter. We also recommend some past episodes and written articles that you don’t want to miss each week. We include additional leadership perspectives and thoughts. That you can only find in the weekly newsletter. So you definitely don’t want to miss out to subscribe to the weekly newsletter simply text. The word lead to four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash. Subscribe again text. The word l. e. a. d. two four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash subscribe. So you don’t miss any future leading saints content. I was brand new presidents and trying to figure out what to do in my calling. And i was just got on the internet ideas and thoughts on how to how to proceed and since then i’ve had several different callings each time. I have a new calling. That’s the first thing i do is go into your podcast and your blogs and see okay. What have other people done. And that’s helped me tremendously. Because i don’t have all the answers and i haven’t had all those different experiences but being able to start off on the right foot is super powerful so yeah love your content and love everything that you eight. This is kurt. franken with leading saints. Say we’ll be back to another episode of this phenomenal podcastone. Have the best job in the world mean. This is a lot of fun. i love it now. If you’re new to leading saints Come on in. we’re glad you’re here. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping latter day saints. Be better prepared to lead and would do that through various methods like this podcast we have online articles leading saints dot org. We do virtual conferences who got a newsletter. That goes out every tuesday. You must not miss. And i’m sure many other things i can’t think of right now but i’m glad you’re introduced to the leading saints world. Now this episode is another goodie. I really try not to have episodes. that aren’t goodies. And this is with norm. He’ll he is a former mission president. Who served in in ghana as a mission president and he tells some phenomenal stories from that time but he is also an author lives down in saint. George was introduced to him which i it burst Forget the beginning this episode. Which you’ll probably hear. I forget how i was introduced to nor because we’ve had several conversations since we’ve been introduced and they’re just been phenomenal. I’ve learned so much from him is perspective and as we were talking. I thought you know what this guy could really help. Some church leaders out there who are sorta feeling stuck in the midst of this Shut down in. The midst of the pandemic were churches. Shutdown activities are somewhat shut down. You know not totally but it feels that way more than not and we don’t know what to do. We tried the zoom meeting thing for a while or activities through zoom or and it just wasn’t jivan right and so we need to figure out how to begin to think. Outside the box think creatively and establish some things some habits some activities. Some efforts are going to Motivate the word and keep them focused on whatever vision you’ve established in your organization in norm as a phenomenal job at this really taking us through solid principles that i think you’ll appreciate and be able to apply right away also recently. We are connected through cedar fort because he’s writing a book. They is called what they don’t teach you in the mtc. Actually he already wrote. It comes out in march and Definitely book to pick up because the especially whether you are preparing a missionary or whether you are trying to be a better member missionary. It’s going to be phenomenal book. And i’m sure there’s future content that we can cover with him around that topic. So you’re gonna love is my interview with norm. He’ll the author of what they don’t teach you in the mtc. today. I’m connected with the normal. How are you. i’m doing great. Thanks so much kurt awesome. I’m excited to have you on here. I’m trying to think her. We usually get connected. Did someone connected. Yes that’s through cedar for their publishing a book that i’ve written called what they don’t teach you at the mdc so things that missionaries need to learn that they don’t have time to teach at the missionary training center virtual or actual and you’ve had some experience teaching you’re teaching missionaries in your own rights or visit mission. President was in ghana correct ghana accra west mission twenty thirteen to twenty sixteen during that time period because of the ebola crisis when fulltime missionaries were withdrawn from sierra i was also asked to preside over the sierra leone freetown to missions for the price of one is.

00:05:09 – 00:10:03

Wow what a responsibility. I’m sure there’s many stories that you could tell i could feel its own podcast several episodes. I’m sure i i’ll at least share a couple now. Maybe you’ll be back later awesome. No that’d be great. That’d be great. Yes we got connected through an intrigued by the premise of this book. And remind me is isn’t out yet or does it come out march. Night is the release date so got out our tonight’s twenty twenty one it’ll be out and the idea is again. There’s a lot of things that are important missionaries. That don’t get caught the mdc. They just don’t have enough time. They have to focus on a few priorities. And so i’ve taken things that are part of preach my gospel and expanded the provided application shown. How in very ordinary ways mysterious can become extraordinary love so give us an example of maybe be that application processor how to get from the an idea to application to tell missionaries die. You want to jump into discussion of sort of broader approach of how leaders in general can do that good so i’m going to give a couple of different examples if that’s okay. Great so one is in preach my gospel. There’s a description of a lot of skills and abilities but they’re not identified. Always in a very cohesive way at one of the things. I did. When i worked i worked for exxon mobil for twenty five years and then six years for reliant energy as the vice president of human resources and we would identify competencies for jobs and then train people to be more effective than those competencies. Those skills and abilities so one of the things i did is extracted from preach my gospel. The competencies some that are well identified some that are more subtle nuance identified them. Put them on cards and ask missionaries to do a self assessment of how good they were on those particular competencies and then design. Help them design their own. Individualized customized training program to get better at so. That’s available from preach my gospel. But it’s not explicit. That’s one example. To a second example is specifically around how concerned members a lot of times missionaries are looking for big service opportunities. When it’s little things that can make a difference. Every missionary likes to have dinner appointments but in places living doesn’t matter where you to serve in places like ghana but it was also true in texas a counselor on the texas houston mission presidency members. Sometimes it can be economically challenged in people in ghana don’t have a lot and have dinner for the missionaries can be a burden so we developed an award in our mission leader council but we called reverse dinner appointments reverse. Da’s where we to dinner to members as opposed always expecting them to come to us and sometimes it wasn’t always dinner sometimes. It was just banana. Bread members appreciated that so very much. I have a grandson whose serving in the dominican republic reassigned to arizona now and in both arizona and in the dr. He took brownies or banana. Bread to members or investigators it created a bond between them that was beyond anything that occurred through the individual discussions. So those are again. That’s an example of a way of giving service a third sort of example. That’s very relevant today. And i hope to this. Discussion is around virtual teaching and virtual contacting today bottom. Missionaries are in lockdown. they have a grandson. Who’s in puerto rico. Their face zero. That can’t do normal prosperity so they knew contacting through facebook or by getting acquainted with people interest groups on the web. That’s so new that it’s not taught at the mtc. There’s a few kind of ways the missionary committee is trying to bolster that among missionaries. But it’s emergency. Missionaries are designing creating learning on the fly in ghana. We had what we call rainy-day plans. It sometimes can be monsoon rain for a day or two or three days sometimes two or three weeks and missionaries needed to come up with plans when they couldn’t go out do normal prosecuted. Those are three examples. Yeah love that’s really helpful. Because i think what i see and help me think through this if i did come to mind but in general leadership world in church i think everybody thinks what.

00:10:03 – 00:15:15

What are we doing here. What are we trying to do. And it’s like well we’re we’re trying to bring people under christ okay but usually that’s where it kind bands in that. I think what you’re talking about with the preach my gospel that has a great a lot of up perspectives. In help like that. You’re some things. Some focuses and direction to go. But then it’s the worst. It comes after that. I think you’re really good at helping people. Think through just like in your mission and ghana where sigua bring people in the christ but you know maybe in texas. We could do more dinner appointments. But that’s just not gonna work here. So what does that look like. And i think right now during a pandemic with church. That’s mainly shutdown work councils or come together and they okay. Yeah we had that vision. That i did. We want to bring people in christ but the skill set of going past ads saying okay now we have an application of how to do that is really sometimes difficult in my on the right track. You’re absolutely you know. Sometimes we talk about things that are occurring at fifty thousand feet. And how do we bring them. Down to five hundred and five my state president when i was a bishop stan ellis now a general authority emeritus. He was very clear about saying general authorities. We give general. Information at bets are calling general authority. It’s up to you now. As bishops stake presidents mission presence home hogtied or ministering brothers and sisters to do the specifics take these general principles and ideas and apply them. That’s what i’ve tried to do in the book what they don’t teach you at the mdc. I think that’s what warren councils relief society presidencies elders corn presidents. These are all with today. We have limited ability for personal contact wets the substitute and sometimes people feel like. I just can’t be as personal when you’re teaching virtually or teaching remotely. Well take a step back. We’ve listened to general conference virtually at remotely most of us most of our hinds and yet we’re still inspired so it’s not that technology is getting in the way it’s our own mindset that’s filtering and blocking us sometimes from being effective in learning through means are available. That’s the telephone it’s zoom. It’s some kind of socially distant personal contact. I have a friend in mountain rain travis. Who told me yesterday. One of the things they’re released society is doing is having ministering drive bys so they’ll have the elders corum presidency or the society presidency phone people in a block and say we’re going to be walking by your neighborhood or driving by your neighborhood to this day at six o’clock. Can you come out on the front porch. And we’ll just will visit we’ll talk. Maybe we’ll have cookies but it’s a way of having a personal contact. That’s socially distant in our own ward here in saint george. We’ve been trying to go beyond small talk. We have a lot of older people in our word and many of them are isolated and lonely. They don’t want somebody to just call and say how are you doing. They wanna have a meaningful conversation. I read an article of new york times of a recent study. That said most people want to do something beyond small talk is just breaking the ice to get there. That’s the challenge. If somehow we can figure out how to get through that initial barrier. You know it’s like the flood gates so but yeah until that happens Daughter wants to be weird. It was yesterday the raw big. We don’t have experience with. It’s that initial effort. That seems overwhelming. Yeah and that’s where it. When she passed that’s the true connection is formed. Brian is beautiful. So i wanna go back to you know. You mentioned your sick president. Who was later. General thirty day kazoo. This dynamic plays a role in influencing how we do some design thinking or process. Some think outside the box because and general theory is they have no possible job. You know i. I’ve been in a stake. Presidency remember that visiting authorities coming. And you know it’s sort of intimidating at times in their story kind of feel like Even though they don’t have a clipboard and making notes you kind of feel like they’re sort of walking around and things off right and they might say just as comment they didn’t think twice about Passing a new. You know like oh you should maybe look at this and that and suddenly became the becomes the steak you know just because they said it. Because i think we’re in a leadership culture. Which isn’t a bad thing where who wanna do what the brother wants to do. You want to follow the handbooks. Do these things and so has sort. Sometimes halts that creative thinking when we think i don’t know. Can we do that. Can we do a dry by thing you know. Can we get creative in these ways or it in especially missionaries there a tough spot where it may be getting more creative because before they had a pretty good structure of what a missionary does right so any thoughts on getting past that create a barrier.

00:15:15 – 00:20:00

That sometimes is a false barrier. And i think at telling the stories about when somebody did something unusual or creative and that it worked out well is really helpful and i have to go in that regard. Cool one is how come we all are able to now enjoy air conditioning. In our church buildings it started in one thousand nine hundred fifty the very first chapel that ever had air conditioning in the church of jesus christ of latter day saints in new orleans. Louisiana and climb. Larson was the state president. Climb larson’s ray good friend. I lived in new orleans. He was in our award and he worked for talk airlines and was building this chapel and of course the brethren in salt lake were will. Why did he central air conditioning. A said have you ever been to orleans in the summer and apparently nobody on the building committee at that point had and they initially rejected the request for central air conditioning. So clive went out and got i- contractor’s license and decided he was gonna fund it build it put it in funded himself dill leader. He got a call from one of the brethren salt lake. They later heard about it said prisoners. We many things for you but this is not one of them. Your request approved on ice nice. A second Example elder gay told this story Elder robert gay. The first of the seven presidents of the seventy in a ghana west africa regional conference and he was then emission president in ghana and then elder Dorf visited ghana and as they were going around looking at some of the church’s elder door noticed that there were basketball goals in cori- alongside many of them kind of outside the building not in the cultural hall and elder door said to elder gay. The hands play a lot of basketball in generally finance or not real tall. And he sent me no exact. I don’t think they do you know they play football soccer a whole lot more but not a lot of basketball. Well how come we have these basketball courts. An elder day said well. It’s part of the standard plan to win shelter nor said hillary gate then again president. Gay do we always need to follow the standard plan. And then they’ll her gay went on to say in his talk. I’m not talking about gospel. Principles talking about their applications any use that story as an example for we need the sometimes. Reach out a customized. We need to figure out what it takes in this particular ward or branch or area and not always followed the standard plan dealing. Those stories are helpful. They give us all some courage to try new things all within a context. Of course i’m not talking about going outside established boundaries or going outside fundamental principles described in the handbook but the kinds of things that the brethren are telling us to focus on people not programs to listen to the spirit of the lord customize or individual people in individual circumstances and telling stories about when our leaders did that. I think is helpful. Ads really helpful. So i know there’s a lot of leaders you know i think we’re well into this pandemic in this shutdown were sort of used Many have gotten used to the word council zoom meetings and that type of thing help us understand the design thinking principles or or if you’re to mentor era of bishop were were council on how to effectively start to process. You know figure out some applications. You mentioned the court finding those core competencies of the or that the considering the demographics and all these things were we begin so that we can effectively did some applications that are actually blessing. Our members moving towards our original visions. Yeah so design. Thinking was developed at stanford university. It’s a focus on problem solving and being able to figure out how to solve problems together. The the way that we problem solve makes a huge difference. It starts with empathy and being able to empathize comes about with gathering.

00:20:00 – 00:25:00

Good information in the church. We sometimes do surveys on a broad scale you know. There’s there’s an enormous research department in salt lake but not always on a smaller scale. So as a for instance. One of the ways to empathize is around teaching and virtual teaching right now at the back of teaching in the saviors away that the church produce two years ago there is a self assessment questionnaire one of the things that i did in trying to promote better. Teaching it in my local award was asked all of the teachers to put. What do you think are the these roughly twenty twenty-five topical areas that you’re really good at and water free things of those twenty twenty five and three things that you feel like you could improve you do better at and we then compiled it at a gin on ward level and said all right what are these are areas of emphasis that we need to ourselves. Train ourselves him and who can help us the most well people who say that they’re good at it. Let’s look at what they say. They’re good at and leverage their personal experience. sometimes self-identification isn’t always the best way but through this prioritization. We’re able to see as award where we thought we needed. Some help virtual teaching where we thought we had some skills and consequently used that are kind of go by a second approach is part of design thinking is to idiot and sometimes that’s brainstorming but it’s brainstorming with some research faces a having done some of your own data gathering like this little survey that we did around virtual teaching and teaching skills to be able to brainstorm. Where do we go with it. A third step than comes to some kind of prototype or figure out. How can we create something new and then figure out whether it works. It’s one thing to say. I wanna connect better through virtual teaching. I wanna be able to use the audio visual arts of virtual teaching us chat rooms as part of its another to come up with ways of making that really interactive and good. Moving on from prototyping is then measuring. Somehow your success. What really is working. What isn’t and that. Willingness to be objective about i at. Something’s worked better than others. Let’s figure out what does and then the last step of this design thinking processes to experiment and keep improving focus on continuous improvement. The closes the low and you go back to them more empathy gathering information and repeating the process. Yeah and that’s great grease. This is sort of aging your your council meetings forward right because you know i think if we have you know let’s go back to the official empathizing just gathering data. We have a strong tradition in our church in our leadership tradition to rely on inspiration and we started. See inspiration as okay. We go into this room and we pray we sit there with maybe pass might is around then. This idea will come and move forward with their right sure that happens. I’ve experienced it in my own experience but we also have to. You know there’s nothing wrong with going out getting more information but it was the old saying that many journals Information leads to inspiration right like like going out in having a formal way of gathering information. And i know right now words you know. There are several months into this pandemic that i they tried some fun things with zoom and doing zoom sunday school. And this and that. And maybe it’s just sorta stale in. They’re not sure what to do. Other than continue the status quo but to step back and say what questions could we ask. The general body of the word you know. Easy tools is google forms as wonders. You could google and find others. But they’re simple as a sending out a survey or even you know what a great i just thinking of sending out there ministering brothers or sisters and say hey you need to go find your values asking these three questions the report back you know. Whatever it is gathering information is sounds like stepped. It’s easily missed but could really alone be be a game changer. Yeah it comes if you will. Its own intervention. Because you’re then able to not only show that you’re interested improving improving. But you have some some solid information behind it to demonstrate. Here’s where we ought to be going.

00:25:00 – 00:30:06

Surveys can be helpful. I think they’re often overused their little impersonal. And so what. A great way of using ministering brothers administering sisters to have a few standard questions. That’s the key and some well recorded responses it allows a discussion at its own. Level between the ministering brother and sister with the family but it also then allows award or a quorum or exhilarate to say. Here’s some things that looks like. We can really make a difference if we do things a little differently. It’s all about improvement in order to improve at some level. You have to say we could be better. It doesn’t mean you have to say we’re not doing well but yet you willing to say okay. I’m going to go from where i am. To some higher level or some higher plane president monson used to say about bishops. They need to stand on higher around so they can lift others up. While in the same way a leader in a corum or an auxiliary or a teacher in a sunday school class needs to be able to know specifically where to lift to a higher ground. Where is that higher ground that we ought to be shooting for not in a general kind of way. Kind of what makes a difference for us in our water core. I think we’re really good in the church about doing that. For ten pro needs if a family someone has lost a job. Or if there’s a a need for food some kind of temporary relief. We’re pretty good in the church at identifying that and figuring out how to marshal the necessary resources welfare resources self reliance resources to address it. We’re not quite as good in some other areas that are less well-defined. Being able to be helpful to somebody who’s isolated and and and really unsure or a teenager who feels like the church isn’t as relevant in their life. Maybe it was once before and it’s those kind of more personal more one to one. Interactions that become diff- more difficult during the pandemic but are still available to us. So i visit with a couple of teenagers regularly in our work some of whom they honestly they just humor me. I know their parents their situation others. We’re we’re into. Hey their disappointment in not being able to have sports and athletics in the way that it that used to occur and they’ve got somebody that they can complain to who’s not gonna say at just backup. Who’s who’s willing to empathize a little bit and understand disappointment. And i think that’s available for all of us during these times. Yeah that’s really helpful. And i guess least my question immunex questions ours like when you started to gather information. How do you know you’re getting the right information. Like are there specific questions. Ask like like you said. Maybe a thermal survey isn’t the best. But then how do you know. You’re you’re seeking for the right information. Dan bringing it together in a. You know a work council setting like do we invite more people do we. Just look at the spreadsheet of the survey data. I mean how do we make sure. We’re getting the data that we’re looking for what we do with it was. We have yeah. So mildest son is spreadsheet. Grew and he would say it’s always a spreadsheet whatever the question. The answer is a spreadsheet nice not quite as driven in that regard. Sometimes it takes a little trial in hair. Curtis it’s not always obvious the good news is we have some basic gospel principle. So it’s not like anything goes it is all right. We have a structure here of gospel. Principles that help give us some guides that put some parameters and constraints some borders on. We also have some basic programs that we know are effective ranging from young women and young men to ministering. Now how do we maximize though. How do we figure out what works. And what doesn’t in these particular times and easy example really is virtual teaching. Because everybody’s doing it and it’s brand new so that’s one that you could say. Hey any ward or core. Hillary would benefit from better understanding. What does it take to be effective from a virtual teach you how to get beyond the superficial in more substantive discussions and the good news is. There’s a fair amount of research. That’s been done on virtual teaching in schools and universities and colleges as well as in high schools just recently but in the past several years online training.

00:30:06 – 00:35:03

There are some go buys that can be extracted by a fairly simple search to say all right. Here’s a few things that look like we ought to be doing. And here’s some things that are interesting that we might consider. Let’s have a discussion with word. Members exhilarating remembers core members about that though. Easy answer on what kinda questions to be asked. Is the ask questions that start with. what or how. What and how are descriptive questions. They allow somebody to explain an answer and they’re not leading or rhetorical so avoiding the other. Who at win. where why ho. Much focusing on what and how enables you to more likely. Get good information that you can then utilize the second kind of thing after that gathered is to then look for themes are some common themes that seem to emerge without taking on too many different kinds of things. Being able to prioritize is sometimes tough for us because we want to gather everybody at the same time and not have any either organization or person left out but frankly that prioritization is what enables real progress without doing it. you know. we’re all things to all people. Then i think third it is bringing to a corn presidency or award council and having them seek that as a place of revelation elder bandar likes to say he would like to get rid of the word meeting. When it comes to work council beatty thinks meeting is the wrong word to be banished. It makes us to businesslike to efficiency oriented he would use instead or counsel as a place of revelation that we ought to seek revelation and a good example of that from the doctrine. Covenants is often repeated story of how we received the word of wisdom. Ms smith came to the prophet. Said things have got to change. I don’t know how they’re working out for you man but for me. This is a mass. Everybody’s smokin enters using spitoons. And sometimes they’re hitting and sometimes they’re missing so you know for the prophets point of view and the brethren that time. They were all fat dumb and happy. Everything was working out fine only from amazon point of view but she said there’s a problem here and so the prophet had to reconcile that and he reconciled that problem that was presented to him by his wife by then going to the lord and saying. Help me with this again. What can be done here. I think that’s a good analog. You know sometimes people are going to have different perspectives. The brethren in this example had a different perspective than emma. Ama- was the one who then brought up problem to the prophet and the prophet side. Inspiration i think orange councils can do the same thing. Recognize the difference of opinion. That’s one to gather good accurate information. I mean emma was giving reports. Emma was not being judgmental. She was simply saying. Let me tell you what’s really happening here that you may not be aware of the prophet then took that good accurate information went to the lord and sought his his guidance. Counselors can do the same thing. Presidencies can do the same thing now. And that’s i love the idea of the principle of just seeking out different perspectives whether they’re right or wrong you’re still valid because there’s someone perspective and they may have a perspective that you that you’re not seeing right. And so as a word or leadership group moves in line to to collect information there. They should be asking repertoire. Perspectives are a missing in. Who has that perspective. The maybe we could go talk to. Do you have any examples made from your mission or elsewhere as far as this process like looks like in the way information came to the surface. Anything like that. I have a couple of different examples in different kind of contexts So one of the examples. That have is when i was a mission president in in ghana. I had to districts that reporting to me so in that case you know mission. President is kind of like a stake president and i met with brethren to ask them at one point in a meeting with not only the district presidencies of the two districts but the branch president says. Well they were relatively close to each other and has us i. I had a set of questions that i ask them to respond to that.

00:35:03 – 00:40:00

Were all around. What do you think is the biggest need that we have in our district. And what should we do about. The response came back a cut through the chase. What we really need is a hospital here. I was like hospital now is true. Is this the african bush. That was not the answer. I was expecting so i said there’s gotta be something here. I don’t know that we’re going to be able to build a hospital. So i spent some time going over with the to district presidencies some ward and andbranch sorry branch statistics and what jumped out at all of us was the high number of people who are receiving financial assistance on a fairly regular basis. Fast offering assistance and some of them were because they had high medical bills. So there isn’t the same health in west africans there is year. I said okay now. I understand why they’re saying build a hospital because they’re seeing these families with high medical bills who are receiving fast offering assistance on a regular basis. I said what have been stead of a hospital. We did something that would help. Members be more self sufficient. More self reliant especially some of these members who are regularly receiving fast offering assistance. It took a little while but eventually we were able to receive some funding from what’s called member assisted programs from the church and we started families with chicken farms. Thirty families received fifty laying hands. We had a process it’s called micro franchising another topic for another podcast. Events knew it as the same as taco bell or burger king. These families weren’t expected to do everything we had a kind of a structure. We bought the chicks. We raise the chicks to alang hands. We had them go through a training program and these thirty families were able to have a whole different source of income than they had ever had before laying. Hands sell the eggs after two years when i left the ghana twenty. Two of those thirty families were self sufficient. They no longer receiving financial assistance. They’re able to pay off many of them bills that had lingered for years so what started from problem definition. What should we do. Let’s build a hospital evolved with better data gathering. Let’s look at our statistics to see if there’s things that emerged to us while looking at a number of elders attendants sacrament meeting who’s receiving welfare assistance with only as we looked at array of data this kind of jump out at us. And then i tion that was that addressed what was below the surface of some of these branch presidents. Hey we know we have. These families who because of medical bills are receiving financial assistance. We turned the tables and made themselves sufficient. Let me get a second example. I often had so before. I was a mission president in ghana. I work for exxon mobil. Five years in nigeria. So i was fairly familiar with west africa. I had a number of visiting authorities. Who as they came either to nigeria. Or i served in the state presidency oregon out say west. Africa is unique in that. There are so many more men being baptized than women film. Replacing the church where we’re baptizing a lot more males than females. Why is that you know. It’s like tell us how you so successful. In baptizing men young men and older men and having them be active in the church so that we can learn from it and transported these ideas elsewhere. I said well. Actually the success is really a failure. Because we’re not baptizing women because they can’t read in west africa by and large you have to pass an entrance exam in order to be able to get into high school and families can’t afford to send very many of their children to high school which is not paid for by the government. Typically you have to pay tuition to go to high school and so man learn how to read.

00:40:01 – 00:45:01

Women often don’t despite government slogans. So as i said you know this is really a problem. The problem is not successful bad days. The problem is results on a successful with women because they can’t read and you know in our church if you can’t read where always emphasizing read the scriptures read the manuals. Were were teaching. Were very dependent on literacy. So as in both bamako s among kasese district’s we first of all gathered information on on how high was the percentage of active women who couldn’t read enormously high above in the range of sixty percent. The second kind of thing we said is if we’re really going to have women empowered in relief society young women. What do we need to do. What specifically is going to help us the most and a group. We decided the single biggest thing we could do is literacy training. I’ve eventually wrote an article for the end sign. Called words can change our world about how literacy enormously benefits not only the individual members but the structure of the church in west africa because now women who can read. Don’t have to rely on somebody else to tell them. What’s in a manual or describe a class or teach their own children. The benefits of reading are mainly all would probably say probably obvious but seeing it as fundamental first of all to who’s attracted to the church and we did invite investigators to participate in swell. Our literacy training was unique in that we tried to address cultural issues as well as language factors who didn’t just teach reading these also became support groups in essence. And so i think in those two cases kurt you can see where gathering information made a difference not only in defining a problem because originally i the problem definition was people have high medical bills and their solution was get a hospital or you guys are so successful in west africa in baptize man. What can we learn from and instead flipping each of those by saying gathering good information by assessing collectively and collaboratively and coming up with a solution that nobody had envisioned at the beginning made us tremendously more successful. Man that is. That’s really helpful. The really good stuff. Let’s move on the next step as far as any tips as far as the the idea. It’s step as far as brainstorming. Now you have all this information and your men sort of energizing as counselor in college. I didn’t even know this was a problem. That really makes sense now and any tips on what to do with brainstorm. You’re starting to come up with ideas of how to move forward in james some things or causing new direction. Brainstorming spent around for a long time. The best brainstorming does transfer into idee has both facilitator. that’s guiding it in a direction and some sideboards so it’s not sometimes we say brainstorm. Well everything goes. Everything’s on the table and you know that’s good at a certain level. The very broad level you need to cast your net wide before you start to two then no and figure out what might be a usable solution. A specific idea that helps a lot in brainstorming. Is all around how you define the problem. So the term is called. Reframing how do i get a different frame of reference how would somebody else. Who’s not familiar with this. Look at it in a different way. How the usual things that we think of suddenly get a little turned on their heads. I like this example is from tom. Sawyer it’s when his amp. Paulie ask tom. Go whitewash offense and this time. Tom couldn’t get out of it so he’s out there with his buckets in his brush and his mark twain writes the story. Here comes down the street. Ben is frenemy. Who he’s the last person liked to see knowing that ban is going to give him a hard time and predictably been does. Hey tom you’re going to have to work. You have to whitewash the spans ongoing off down fish. Tom ignores it. Bend says a little louder.

00:45:01 – 00:50:05

Hey tom your have to work. I’m gonna go off fishing too bad. We can’t go with me. It’s a beautiful day and tom. As mark twain writes lazily using his brush. And says what do you mean work. This isn’t work. It’s not every day that a boy gets a chance to whitewash offense and then as the story goes ben says what i think. You’re right give me a chance to whitewash the fence now and you know we’re familiar with the story. Were ben is now this point. Pay tom in order to whitewash the fence. In order to be able to have this unique experience. That avoid doesn’t get a chance to do every day. Now sometimes people say oh yeah. That’s just a story about tom manipulating things. I don’t think so. He defined work as play and other people accepted that definition. I like it. When elder anderson neil anderson a couple of years ago about a missionary that he met and the missionary said we ought to stop using the word missionary. Work this’s missionary fun. My middle son. And i have used that phrase when when l. anderson spoke at a conference in us that my my phone lit up ross said hey copyright using mr fund we’ve been using texas houston mission and he while serving his mission for years. We have this connotation gonna go back to the story about what constitutes work and when tom defined an activity differently as play others not only ban but others accepted that definition it. It’s it’s important in brainstorming. Kurt how you define a problem. And so this reframing is how can i get a different point of view. How would somebody who is from another part of the world or not a member of the church. or what a microbiologist. How they approach this problem definition and getting different problem definitions matter enormously just as my example of when in west africa they jumped so quickly to a hospital as a solution. Sometimes we in fact a. There’s a clever phrase that the group is called synetix. They’re out of boston. They teach problem solving they. They use the phrase to often problem. Solving is a solution in search of a problem. We already have our answer or just looking for somebody who will accept it. As opposed to starting from a clean sheet of paper gathering information and then saying what does this mean to us from a variety of different perspectives. Yeah so that refraining principle so it will you gala this this information and then you’re Refraining it depend- depending on what perspectives. During the reu or is. I don’t make that connection yet. Yeah so it’s it’s what are different ways of defining. This problem are there. Are there others so again. At an another example as a company in houston we once moved into old building houston industries. The building had a really slow elevator. So many but so slow. People were complaining about it all the time and so a small group got together to brainstorm. What do we do about it too. Many complaints was the driver. The brainstorming turned into solutions instead of trying to understand so somebody said a we down block the stairs but this is houston in the middle of the summer. People are gonna take the stairs. Somebody else said we need to put a another elevator outside the building peachtree atlanta. That’s pretty expensive yet. A third person will. Let’s have some high speed generators as the elevators. Move faster again pretty expensive. Finally somebody in the room said you know. We’re defining the problem as slow elevators. What if instead we define the problem as impatient people. Would we come up with different ideas. Would we brainstorm things differently. Yeah gen okay. And they did eventually. Company put full length mirrors on every floor next to the elevator and people became so enamoured. You know noticing themselves and combing their hair or straightening their tie.

00:50:06 – 00:55:00

Those few seconds where they were distracted caused them to somehow. The elevators were faster. The complaints went almost zero. Because there was something that took people’s minds off for the elevator. It’s how defining a problem differently. Reframing getting different frame of reference can change your solution in the same way that i think Elder uc door was saying to then president game. Do we always have to follow the standard procedure in. There was a sense that we’re putting in basketball courts gone ghana because that’s what we do at other places and suddenly that changed once there was freedom to really consider other options and a catalyst and encouragement to do so now out an award or branch or local level. I think the example of reverse dinner appointments is a way of saying. What can we do differently to to serve others. another there’s a lot of missionaries who are struggling right now with how to do contacting and what’s the best way to do it in a virtual world and and i am too often we start with will let let’s our message out there. Let’s put as many places we can. What the church is doing. And and what it’s all about. Factually president oaks. Who said sometimes people are less interested in our doctrine did they are in the fruits so rather than starting my talking about the doctrine maybe rather talk more about the fruits and then he went on to say something to defect of that applied their interests so instead of doctrine fruits interest as reverse the process interest fruits its doctrine and some missionaries are doing that by. Here’s a specific example. A missionary sister serving in the washington state area is a musician jazz musician and she went on jazz websites in in her area. Found some that were in this city in which she lived and started talking about. Hey i’m a played jazz both the clarinet and piano. And i’m here is a missionary but spared time and you know what he is doing. Tell me the kind of things you’re doing. And she started conversations much the same way that we might do or if we were talking to somebody only sees doing online with people who she knows are already interested in jazz because they’re part of a jazz website. She’s not bringing up jazz digest. Anybody she’s bringing it up to people who already have that affinity and as a result of several those conversations. She’s teaching people. Some of whom are participating in zoom. Church is happening in other places as well. A grandson whose cross country runner and Really likes running. And he’s try and teaches spanish east trying to do the same kind of thing with running groups with spanish language groups in the misson where he served. It’s those kinds of ways of applying pragmatically some general principles. Maybe aren’t common that we don’t always approach In the same kind of way. Yeah so it sounds like in this. The eight stages that Before you start brainstorming about solutions you have to sort of brainstorm. Maybe some reframing how we see this different what if it look this way is right now. I’m hearing a lot. You know as i talked with different leaders around the world. There’s they’re really nervous about apathy. You know the church. Everybody’s done home church for so long and the word about this. You know them coming back to church right and there’s obviously some assumptions. Maybe they’re making their salary. Reframe that to maybe. There’s a different way that maybe that’s not the problem. Maybe there’s something else going on here. And so is that again. I have to analyze all the different perspectives or refrain. That you could do around the what you think is the problem. The more you do it the better. No it’s the old seven blind man of siam What’s this elephant while the elephants like trunk of a tree. Because that’s what he’s feeling or no.

00:55:00 – 01:00:25

It’s like a roach because feeling with taylor. No like a wall. Because they’re feeling the side of the elephants it’s only when groups come together with their different perspectives and try to pull information. Are you able to get a better perspective. A in this case what a problem is and what may be options for doing things differently. I think we’re all during this time of of Individual attention trying to end the pandemic trying to figure out how we make that cross connection you know what. What are the ways win where isolated that we can somehow reach across and do things differently. I’ve had two experiences Like to to share a little bit. One is in ghana in nineteen eighty eight long before i let there. It’s known as the freeze where the government essentially banned all public worship by the church in ghana and and it started out known understood why what was behind it or how long this would last at eventually lasted fourteen months. You can imagine the church. It only revelation on the priesthood was nineteen seventy eight the first two senior missionary couples. The first baptisms said gonna where late nineteen seventy eight early. Nineteen seventy nine so only ten years of formally organized churches and now the government says. You can’t meet. You can’t get together in church buildings. They were locked. You can’t get together in small groups in some cases a wonderful man. Stephen abu was put into prison. Another cases a cape coast or members were just visiting with each other. They were detained by the police for forty eight hours Thinking that they had violated it so members without the use of technology in this instance of had somehow figure out. How do we encourage each other. How do we support each other without formal meetings. And they did a a lot by visiting. Now there’s a culture of visiting on the front porch that somewhat occurs in southern parts of the. Us you know this idea will meet out on. The porch on the rocking chair will visit that. We we don’t have an. I grew up in utah and just lived in south africa by us. We don’t have that sane sort of tradition sit on the porch and whittle and talk and and figure out how we can. We can solve some of the world’s problems they do have that tradition west africa very orel. Highly verbal tradition partially because languages weren’t even written down until the last hundred years but during that fourteen month period when the church was banned most members of the church still came back once the freeze was lifted and it was because there was just a lot of individual conversations. It wasn’t anything magic in that sense it but but i think there’s something to to learn from it One of the things that members tried to do not everywhere but in places is to say okay at twelve o’clock noon everybody in your home’s let’s use that as the time. We’re going to study the book of mormon and the bible so so they had a common sort of start time in this sense of bright brothers and sisters across ghana are doing the same thing at this time. They tried to share common scriptures in him. Again it wasn’t all that well organized. It was more hit and miss more episode. But it was that sense of. We’re in this together. We’re sharing things even under the radar because we can’t meet in person. I think those are markers that we can learn from. What’s that equivalent for us today where we can’t beat in the same way but we’re still able to use technology and see each other the second example. I’d like to use his. In sierra leone. during ebola it is a very similar go by because of ebola which is highly transmittable. It’s easy to catch. And unlike the corona virus historically had a very high mortality rate government banned public meetings at various times a members of the church occasionally met in homes but more often than not had to just do things on their own and We during that period of time tried to share success stories with one.

01:00:25 – 01:05:01

Another of what seemed to be working. What are the kinds of things that somebody else is doing. The work best practices that as such a management organization connotation but it’s a nice shorthand phrase. What somebody else doing that we can learn from it. People felt really disconnected. They they long to participate in the church. there’s just no substitute for an individual contact. I ask each district president during that period to every day. Give me the name of one or two people. That i could call. I had i had unlimited minutes in people who were west africa. They don’t like to call out because it costs the money on their phone but for me it was no big deal so i tried to call every day. One or two people had the names were given to me by the district president and just visit. I always read a scripture going back to small talk. I think people want something deeper than small talk. It just doesn’t cut it. And so it was easy for me to have a scripture share with them and then relate some thing that somebody else had told me in a different bow or freetown a different part of the country. Those two things story spread people. Were hey oughta get on this. Call line here. What’s going on and the in formality of sharing best practices sharing a gospel message. And i’m gonna say at some level concern from someone who was outside the country in this case all made a big difference. Yeah that’s really helpful so deadening about this for the next step. Once you’ve got you have a plan together. You have a plan together. And you’re ready to move forward with it in ’cause this the prototyping steps of lake testing step like you have some ideas us. Go see what works. And what doesn’t and then you’re obviously measuring the results then experimenting again or readjusting in annotating the problem yet so any tips on how that stank is a lot of times it can feel like he going back to our tradition in the church. You know the bishop comes out with this plan. And this thing we’re going to do this initiative the the program whatever it is and As a work. But maybe they don’t address it Fades away right who are or are always changing. What they’re doing and people are getting confused right so any tips on this process of actually applying a plan. That you’ve come up with gifts so it is about testing and experimenting and we like to quote in alma experiment with the word Alma also talks about experiment with his goodness. I think if there’s a willingness to experiment it makes a difference and the key to course any good experiment is to be a good observer and to accurately try to measure its success. Otherwise i’ll all you’re doing is sharing anecdotes and doesn’t have that. Be the rigor of the scientific method. But this idea of being willing to experiment to a mindset of experimentation. I think makes a big difference in ghana. I love proverbs. I think it’s a great insight into a language or a country of there’s a proverb in a local african language called tree. Goes something like this. Oughta do awada. That’s tree he and it means. A bird has to leave the nest. In order to catch a worm. This idea of leave your comfort zone of get outside the sort of normal and experiment and the test and to try and i do think as you described. Sometimes our initiatives are are sort of pulses. We we send out a calls. He was out another bolts willing to work. Either let’s keep going as opposed to trying to say all right.

01:05:01 – 01:10:04

What is it. That really seemed to work here. In what did you know. Where can we take grains of things Little nuggets at apply. It somewhere else. And how do we really know what’s working. What’s not without simply relying on anecdote to henry nash. Smith said there’s only two important questions live the first is. How do you know the second is. So what if we’re if we’re willing to be patient with the question. How do you know and see that as an invitation to learn not just a way of saying we were successful or not successful sometimes where we’re way too eager to make sure that everything goes right. We may polish the answer rather than trying to say. This part worked better than this other. Part of let’s keep what seemed to work and get rid of what didn’t and keep going and an experiment again. I think that willingness to to do so that makes a difference and ultimately my guess is that’s how we have the current block schedule. You know at one point in time. Different wards around the. Us experimented with a three hour block schedule in a two hour block schedule and as a result of that. We’re now in a different framework all the same gospel principles but a different delivery mechanism than we’ve had in the past well kind of what. The pandemic is forcing us to do as well as look at how with zoom with our home Centered church supported teaching. How all that works. And and make adjustments. There have been times when the church has offered up a program or an emphasis shadow. Leadership for youth comes to mind that you’d say well that didn’t work quite the way we thought it was going to work a description about facilitators in teaching. Saviors way. I think the sense was able we emphasize too much discussion under the siltation and not enough destruction and making sure that we’re describing the doctrines. These adjustments are natural normal. And it’s the art of of discovery and that willingness to to experiment to say what’s working and what’s not to assess it together without feeling. An obligation of everything has to be perfect. Everything has to go right. We could be much. More objective allows an organization a branch at word council to keep at rating. Yeah and what i love about. This model present is that i think just by engaging with this model members of your warder or the organization leading are gonna see like other gathering information and another with ideas tried some different things right and sometimes i feel like You know these. These leadership processes can be very spiritual experiences in exciting. And then we we assume that these are just. These aren’t just ideas that we came up with these are actually sanctioned by god and we will now you know deliver them using language like we trade about this week we feel like this is the best way to go and no one. Doesn’t you come back and say actually we prayed about it and this other ways away to go members are starting to think. look at. What exactly is going on by missouri’s right. Then it gets harder to get behind we need. You framed it that way. But when it’s like okay the workhouse got together. We prayed about like we really feel like this might work. It might not. Let’s we all come together and see if we can have a go at this. See if it makes a difference in. We’re going to reassess rule importantly we get your feedback through this. We’re going to be constantly agreed assessing ruling. Make this process move forward right. I guess it’s all about framing in that in that stage as well. Yeah and the brethren are telling us we have ultimate flexibility around those kind of things. Yeah we all know where we’re going understand the church principles if we’re really schooled in the handbook. Then it gives us this ability to be created to to know where we can push and where we can pull and the constraints that also there for our protection. So there’s a there’s a bridge in new orleans. It’s called the huey. Long bridge may built the bridge from each side of the river bridge in new orleans across the mississippi river.

01:10:04 – 01:15:01

They built the bridge from two different sides. Don’t quite a line in the middle when you get to the middle you have zag sides when they built them. Separately didn’t quite mesh sometimes. Because we’re we’re all working together but from different points of view. They’re going to be these mesh points. They’re going to need some adjustment at the top and from my point of view. That’s all good yet. Still bridge right. It’s still works. That’s it is still works. People still use those built nineteen thirty nine. The bridge is still there today along the bridge. There’s also importantly. I think for any kind of bridge. There’s guardrails no one would go on a bridge if there were no guardrails even if it were wider it would just be too intimidating. The good news is the handbook gives us those guardrails. It says here’s the kind of things you drive across the bridge from new orleans to west wego good. Give you these guardrails know. Sometimes you’re going to be a few mesh points you’re gonna have to make some adjustments. Stay within the lanes recognized. Nobody ever hits the guardrails their their psychological as much as they are physical but they give us the ability to pursue goals interest. In this case drive across the bridge that we might otherwise be reluctant to do so. Handbook helps us gives us guidance. The general principles are time again. The general authorities the local specifics that apply to us our award. Our branch arcora. We have all the encouragement that we can imagine. Go and do good in our area. Applying those principles and to creatively come up with new ideas at Before wrapped up by bennie. One or two more questions but anything we missed it you hit on before we wrap up. I think this has been awesome. Really informative and helpful but anything that you are. Make sure we hit on for your app. I don’t think i would say during this time of pandemic people are looking for in a. What’s the new normal. What’s what’s going to happen after words f- for me. This is a time of as well of saying. What are we learning about ourselves that we can take with us that we don’t just see this as a blip on the curve and suddenly things are going to go back to the way they were but instead we say all right what. What can we learn from what’s happened here that we make sure we apply president outdoor dorville. Who dorf has emphasized that around missionary service that you know some of the things. We’re doing with electronic proselytizing. We should be doing all the way all along. And after the pandemic we’re gonna keep doing now. He hasn’t articulated. Here’s a laundry list of what those things are. It’s more of a direction. I love that that sense of. Here’s some things that we’re going to take with us. I think there’s plenty of opportunities for us to do that too i. It’s all about personal connections. No when the savior appeared on the american continent people at zara. Hamlet they came up one by one and it was that one by one attention. I think there’s about a half a dozen times in the book of mormon a term while by one is use that individuality is what it’s all about. There’s no substitute at and that can be done very well. Using social distance using zoom using phone calls if we also see those technology vices as a way of getting past ordinary superficial discussions finding out. What people’s interests are you know. There’s a saying going around. Everybody has a story. And it’ll break your heart if you knew all of what that story was about somehow in the church we are all desirous of understanding those stories and healing broken hearts ultimately.

01:15:01 – 01:20:00

That’s what the atonement does for us. As saviors on mount zion. We can be instruments. In the lord’s hands if we will find a way to get past the superficialities and engage on a level that allows people to be vulnerable to know that. We’re going to respect the trust that they place in a us and that by doing so we can go marching arm in arm together homeward to our heavenly father. I love that love that. Where would you send people assume the any online bookstore will have your your materials but If people wanna know more about your your writings in more bet you send him yet. So cedar for is publishing. What they don’t teach you at the mtc march night there pre publication orders that you can already placed by going to seaports website and request a preorder copy of the book right now. Hopefully once it’s published in an available it’ll be a bookstores throughout the inter mountain west and available online as well awesome. I’m excited to dive in and read it. Not going ahead for you now as you reflect on your time as a leader in the restored gospel was being a leader. Helped you become a better follower of jesus. Christ you have a really good question. Any good leader is also a good follower in any organization. There’s no one who’s not a follower even the ceo of an organization or the prophet in the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. We’re obviously followers of the savior. What being a follower means is sometimes putting aside your own personal interests of putting aside some things that as we might do individually if it was a if we were in a different role of we were in a flipped role and instead give our best efforts to who’s ever in charge at gandhi had a theory about leadership and he described it as similar to being the bus driver. He said if you get on a bus. Let’s say you’re in salt lake city. You wanna go to chicago as long as you’re on. The the driver is heading. Sort of northeast. Everybody’s okay. If suddenly the driver says snow were heading south. They’re either going to get off the bus or they’re going to throw the driver off the bus so his perspective was yeah. Any good leader is very much in tune with where the followers are and the followers and the leader are almost in a symbiotic relationship. It’s not one person being in charge. And everybody else like lemmings falling behind but it’s instead wherein this together we’re moving forward together in a common way and i think that metaphor that gandhi had is is a useful one for all of us. This church prospered in the early days of youth on eighteen forties fifties and sixties because people were willing in the case of saint. George when free hundred names were out from the pulpit to go. South bay went south and formed the mission and that willingness to follow the prophet to say. Okay i’m i might prefer to stay here. We’re already have a farm and orchard. But i’m gonna go. They’re do that. Also is a church prospered. Because of communitarian effort zion central mercantile corporation was a cooperative You and i should. At one point was a cooperative. Cooperative spirit of the church in the early west is what allowed growth and sustainability. I think today that same sense of we’re in this together where followers and leaders are two sides of the same calling where in a symbiotic relationship and as we give up some of our own ego when we’re not in charge and say okay. This is good enough. I’m gonna be on the path. I’m gonna help make whatever a leader might identify as solution. I’m going to make it work by my effort by my energy bye-bye support to extend we all do that. The church that concludes my interview with norm hill. Bless his heart. Thank you norm. Really appreciate the thought that the the stories those remarkable stories. I could listen to those all day. i think.

01:20:00 – 01:22:36

Normally don’t podcast all in favor right just telling different stories experienced over the years it was really a treat to just sit and learn from him and you know i was taking notes. I hope you check out the show notes for various you know the main ideas may go back review so these sections and and now you have a model may be taken to your ward council your eldest corporate Presidency and say okay. How are we going to go through this. How can we collect ideas information and then served ideas. Can we generate. How can you reframe the problem. Make people discover that the problem we think is the problem. Isn’t the problem right. So just really hard hitting helpful information So thank you for doing and you know. I feel like we’ve we hit. We’ve had some great content for everyone from dan. Duckworth to deanna murphy. Now to norm hill of people who’ve really given you some ideas as far as how to better energize your leadership efforts in the midst of a unique time of shutdown or a a halfway shutdown wherever it is however it is. You’re expected leadership efforts right now. Who else should we talk to. Or what other questions do you have. What are their holdups. Hurdles are facing cinema way leading saints dot org slash contact and We may not have the perfect person to interview but at least gives us an idea of where we can go and focus on necks. And we’ll do the legwork and find another person to bring on And you know about it. And hopefully we’re not over saturating you with content around this topic but the reality is any episode in the history of leading saves can help you at a time like this because we always try to stay. Try to stay principle based and those principles can be applied to whatever situation. So give us your feedback with here and remind you once again to text. The word lead to four seven. Four seven four seven in order to subscribe to the leading saints weekly newsletter it k- must result of a position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the god of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of jesus christ and when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church on the face of the earth immediately put in a position of loneliness loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor runaway and a which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.

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