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Note: We recognize that the doctrine of Mother in Heaven is a very sensitive topic for many individuals in our faith community. Many will come to this episode seeking hope and encouragement in their eternal faith journey (especially women). Both the host and interviewee intended this discussion to be hopeful and encouraging (especially to women). We also recognize that some women have felt marginalized and diminished in our religious community and might interpret some of this discussion (especially around the discussion of the role of Mother in Heaven) as short-sighted or diminishing. Please know this was not intended. Since we have so little revelation around this topic it can only be discussed with speculation. Please listen with an open heart as we strive to bring more discussion to the important doctrinal topic of Mother in Heaven.
Scott Layton is a native of West Valley City, Utah and served in the Philippines Angeles Mission. He received a master’s degree in religious education from Brigham Young University and is currently employed by Seminaries and Institutes in the Salt Lake area. He has served in various church positions including Young Men president, scoutmaster, high councilor, bishopric counselor, and was recently released as bishop. Scott and his wife, Kali, are the parents of seven children, six boys and one girl.
In this podcast, Scott talks about what he learned while preparing a presentation on the doctrine of our Heavenly Mother and compiling resources for seminary teachers, and how as leaders we can do better at including Heavenly Mother in our dialogue.
Highlights
05:05 His research started with “Mother in Heaven” in the Gospel Topics Essays.
06:20 When do we refer to Heavenly Father versus Heavenly Parents?
07:25 Our theology, everything we believe, everything we are as latter-day saints begins with this foundation of heavenly parents: Dallin H. Oaks said, “Our theology begins with heavenly parents, and our highest aspiration is to attain the fulness of eternal exaltation” (“No Other Gods,” General Conference, October 1993).
08:15 Why don’t we talk about Mother in Heaven? Kathryn H. Shirts sorts reasons based on “human conventions” versus “divine reality” (“Women in the Image of the Son: Being Female and Being Like Christ,” 1991 Women’s Conference). Weigh human conventions against the reality of a divine goddess who possesses all power, all attributes, all perfections, and then question what’s mere strong tradition.
11:25 General authorities in general conference peaked at 9 references to Mother in Heaven in the 1970s, yet references to both Mother in Heaven and Heavenly Parents skyrocket to 67 in the 2010s. We must apply what we know about Heavenly Father to understand Heavenly Mother’s powers, capabilities, and perfections because they are equal.
13:35 The doctrine of Heavenly Mother is distinct to the Restored Gospel of Christ and not included in modern Protestant Christianity.
14:14 B. H. Roberts points out that our doctrine distinctly ennobles women, motherhood, and wifehood by “placing [Mother in Heaven] side by side with the Divine Father” (Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1912).
15:03 The doctrine that if faithful, we can gain all that the Father has creates a misnomer that a woman’s eternal identity and purpose is to become like a man. The doctrine of Heavenly Parents is fundamental to all we believe.
17:13 That all humans, male and female, are beloved spirit children of Heavenly Parents is rooted in scripture. For example, Genesis teaches we are made in the image of God, and the Hebrew word for God is plural. The book of Moses teaches there was a spiritual creation before the physical creation: he sees this as the Father and Mother working together for the spiritual creation while the Father and Son work together to make it a physical reality.
19:35 What are the distinctions between roles and purposes in the Godhead and between mortal roles for men and women? While our knowledge is limited, we’ve been shown a divine pattern. Harold B. Lee taught that our Heavenly Father and Mother are “even more concerned, probably probably, than our earthly father and mother, and that influences from beyond are constantly working to try to help us when we do all we can” (“The Influence and Responsibility of Women,” Relief Society Magazine, Feb. 1964).
23:00 What’s the division of roles and responsibilities? Can our Heavenly Mother comfort us? Or is comforting only a role of the Holy Ghost? We don’t fully understand the mechanics of her influence but should treasure our sacred relationship with her in our own heart. However, we only pray to Heavenly Father. This doesn’t devalue her: we can have a relationship with her just as we have with Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost comforts us as an agent of the Atonement.
27:03 What prophets teach of the roles of earthly mothers help us see the beauty of the divine plan and the different responsibilities of our Heavenly Parents toward bringing us back into their presence. Women conceive, bear, nourish, and train: they’ve been given the power to become co-creators with God. Theirs is the essential responsibility to bring mortality. The priesthood steps in to redeem from this fallen world to bring us back. There’s a painting of hands handing a baby through the veil into a mother’s hands.
32:40 We’ve been given divine and instinctive traits. Did these come from premortal classes? A woman’s essential role to nurture doesn’t diminish what else she can do. It’s liberating to realize we can become like Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. It’s empowering to imagine Heavenly Mother preparing souls for mortality.
37:06 Kurt’s daughter once asked when it would be her turn to pass the sacrament. How do we empower the girls and women in our lives with the truth of the feminine divine? We are instructed in the roles of mortality and redemption in the story of Adam and Eve and the two trees, the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Eve first eats from the tree of knowledge which brings mortality. After being removed from the garden, they spend the rest of mortality making their way back to the tree of life through the ordinances administered through the priesthood. They work together as husband and wife: she brings souls in and he works to redeem them through the Atonement. That this mortal phase is a bit more priesthood centered in no way diminishes the role the women play.
39:00 We work our way through the ordinances of the gospel individually: baptism, confirmation, and the endowment process are all personal, but then in the sealing room, every ordinance we have ever made is sealed together in one covenant. We cannot fully exercise our power without the other: we share both the procreative and priesthood powers. Eve was taken from Adam’s rib and so belongs by his side as an equal, never in front or behind.
41:12 The Proclamation establishes our doctrine of Heavenly Mother right alongside that gender is essential to our premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. Gender is not just a social construct. The relationship of our Heavenly Parents can provide counsel and support for our earthly relationships: they are a married couple. It’s fun to imagine Friday date night: “Do you see that galaxy over there? I created that because it reminds me of you.”
43:50 One area he falls short is thinking that he needs to rest alone when he gets home from work: In the story of the creation, Heavenly Father’s rest is providing for his family. He asks if he is actively working for the salvation of his family.
44:32 These resources reveal there is a feminine divine, and every girl and woman can become like our Heavenly Mother. We can stretch our perspective on her influence in our lives and the eternal plan. We can make her existence more obvious in the Sunday church experience, in the books we write, etc. Leaders can draw the line between the personal revelation encouraged by our prophet and what we present to a general audience. Inferences and conclusions must be rooted in scripture and prophetic teachings. Be guarded by all we do not know.
49:30 Our personal study process is more important than inferences from commentary. Have your own experiences with the scriptures and prophetic quotes. It’s important you have your own personal experiences with the doctrine of Heavenly Mother just as it’s important we have our own experiences with the nuances of the doctrine of the Atonement of Christ. We must be self-reliant in our ability to engage with God and scriptures to come to our own conclusions. We shouldn’t be dependent upon supplemental commentary.
52:35 Vaugn J. Featherstone said, “Sometimes misguided women or men direct our youth away from their divinely appointed role. Worlds without end, men will never be able to bear children. Every young woman may be a procreator with God and carry a little one under her breast either in this life or in the eternal worlds. Motherhood is a wonderful, priceless blessing, no matter what all the world may say. Priesthood ordination is a blessing to men. There are serious consequences when either motherhood or priesthood is abused or laid aside” (“A Champion of Youth”, November 1987 General Conference). As champions of motherhood, we must not become prescriptive in defining motherhood as staying home, which is only one version of it.
53:50 Imagine ministering as empowering others by ennobling the office or father or mother and helping them be the best parents they can be and to build the family. For those whose souls long to be married or have kids, he hopes they can find confidence in the promises, trust that our Heavenly Parents will do what is best for them, and faith that it will happen. He desires them to find hope and courage to take another step forward to the eternal promises. An aching heart can be a sign of the divine potential and nature from your Heavenly Mother. We can lean into the gospel and God.
57:10 Perhaps for things dealing with becoming more like God, we could make reference to Heavenly Parents, but for issues related to salvation, exaltation, and sanctification, we would refer to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. There is safety in following patterns of general authorities’ uses of Heavenly Parents versus Heavenly Father. Make space for others to explore their own journey discovering understanding about Heavenly Mother.
59:19 Glen L. Pace said, “Sisters, I testify that when you stand in front of your heavenly parents in those royal courts on high and you look into Her eyes and behold Her countenance, any question you ever had about the role of women in the kingdom will evaporate into the rich celestial air, because at that moment you will see standing directly in front of you, your divine nature and destiny” (BYU Devotional, 9 Mar 2010).
Links
Mother in Heaven Quotes (PDF download)
Our Heavenly Family, Our Earthly Families | Facebook Live Interview with McArthur Krishna
Read the TRANSCRIPT of this podcast
Thank you for taking on this topic that needs more attention. I loved how Bro. Layton did not come to conclusions for us, but laid out information and places where we can go study for ourselves. I am making a study plan now.
I’m so grateful for this podcast. Thank you for putting the effort into doing this. It means so much to me and have touched my soul. God bless you both for loving others enough to help in this way.
Thank you for addressing this topic. I do think, however, that the example used of a bishop and his wife is a little off. Most men are not bishops, and even if they are serving as a bishop, there role in the home is that of father. While the roles of men and women stress different responsibilities, most earthly parents have overlap in them, which includes counseling together for the welfare of their children. Moses 6:9 speaks of calling “their name Adam,” which to me exemplifies their working in total concert. I cannot see Heavenly Mother abandoning her watchcare for her children when they move into mortality not can I envision Heavenly Father placing the total responsibility of preparing his children for mortality on his wife. If mortality echoes eternity, then I believe they must work in concert as Heavenly Parents.
I was skeptical coming into this podcast. Two men taking about Heavenly Mother? Yeah, we’ll see. The first half was wonderful!
A couple of things though in the second half had me scowling, which is ironic since I was doing so while the guest talked about how women he’s presented this to have felt relief! The biggest thing is the discussion on roles. You’ve perpetuated the idea that motherhood = priesthood. It does not. Motherhood = fatherhood. Priestesshood = priesthood. I’m not advocating for ordination here but that false equivalence does more harm than good. I also agree with the previous commenter. While I love the idea that our Divine Mother is still helping spirits prepare for earth life, I think using that idea as an explanation as to why we don’t hear about her diminishes her and can be seen a a way to shame or discourage women to have a relationship with her. Guess what? I don’t live with my mom anymore but I still want a relationship with her and she wants one with me. Why would our Heavenly Mother be any different?
Fellow West Valley native here! It really does get a bad rap!
I enjoyed the podcast, it gave me a lot to ponder, and one idea I had was to search “motherhood” in the Gospel Library.
Perhaps studying motherhood in general would help us all understand Heavenly Mother and her role a little better, as well as our relationship to Her!
I feel the need to make a comment here on some insights that have come to me I’m my own studies—for thoughtful consideration only, of course.
It’s been hard for me to reconcile the fact that we are not to pray to Mother with teachings of and longing for equality. This has been hard for me, as for many of us in the church. But it dawned on me that there must be some countervailing reason for this to be perpetuated in by God through out modern prophets, and I’ve come to believe the scriptures give done strong hints as to why.
When I consider what brought down both the ancient Canaanites and the Israelites—and one thing the Law of Moses was designed to avoid at all costs, even to the extremes of genocide and public execution— a major component of it included sexualized fertility goddess worship.
The doctrine of a Father and a Mother—and, indeed, an organized council of God’s children (we read about this in Job, as well as in Abraham), as understood by the patriarchs, eventually degenerated into idolatrous polytheism. Much like what clearly happened to the Greeks’ understanding of the plan of salvation. These satanic permutations condoned and encouraged and even required illicit sex.
The devil, in other words, twisted knowledge of our heavenly family into a cult following Heavenly Mother never wanted.
The prophets fought and condemned this (e.g., all those references to “groves” and worshiping “the host of Heaven” in Isaiah). Ultimately, as we come toward the end of the Old Testament, we find the prophets focusing worship more and more on Jehovah, until by the end of the Babylonian captivity, the Jews were staunch monotheists.
Why would Father (and Mother) do this? Well, I’m sure the reasons are multifaceted; but, to be sure, it put a definitive end to the goddess worship problem.
And where does this put us? Are we so much better than our ancestors that we’re immune to these problems? In my experience, no. I’ve taught the gospel on two continents, and I’ve had to tangle with “mujerdocio”— woman priesthood— both places. In Utah, I’ve seen conference lectures with titles like “Keys to the Queendom” and met those who insist on praying to Mother in Heaven (and also, often, to their “angels,” typically following patterns appropriated from Druidic witchcraft).
In other words, now that we know what the ancient Israelites knew, we see members of the church sliding into cultural segments on a path right over the same cliffs. This is, I believe, an inherent danger of knowing what we know, but allowing ourselves to become shallow or casual about it— and Satan already has experience in helping us right along.
I believe we should cherish what we know about Heavenly Mother, and that we should treat that knowledge with responsibility and respect, while recognizing the dangers and putting faith in the instruction our Parents give us through the prophets. Heavenly Mother doesn’t want “feminists” or “sexually liberated women (or men)”—she wants all of us home.
Scott Layton’s PDF became part of my gospel study this morning. I looked up Genesis 1:26-27 as listed and soon found myself LOVING the language in Abraham 4: 26-27: “the Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; . . . . So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.” The use of “the Gods” makes it easier for me to see Heavenly Mother and other Goddesses involved in the creation of the world and of our first mortal parents. The use of the word “counsel” paints a picture similar to a family group or group of church leaders gathering to counsel together over important issues and plans. It all makes so much sense to me!
Thank you for sharing this discussion on Leading Saints. I’ve shared the link with my whole family. My sister says I’m making a podcast listener out of her!
I love Leading Saints and was thrilled to see an episode about Heavenly Mother. The episode was full of great insights, but I left quite disappointed. It begins by dismissing outdated cultural messages about Her and but then quickly replaces them with new ones. I understand this is a difficult topic to approach without speculation, but the conversation relied so heavily on limited, cultural gender roles here in mortality, and then applied these to the divine. This felt entirely inappropriate and seemed to justify our lack of acknowledging Her. I hope Leading Saints gives this another attempt— and it would make the conversation far more meaningful to include a few women.
I personally heard some things I needed to hear that helped me find greater love for and peace in my role as woman, as wife as mother. I loved thinking about the idea of mother is rearing children and father is at work. It may seem simple, it may not fit with many women out there as far as their current lives but, the gospel as I understand is the ideal we work for even if it’s not something we have or can attain here on earth. Why that matters to us personally is something we each have to find out but, I do think that for me personally I can be strengthened in my role by the ideas you shared in this podcast. Having studied motherhood often in my life even before becoming a mother, I’ve prepared myself to hear what you intended me to hear rather than what pride would stop me from hearing and interpose in its stead. Thank you!
This conversation was beautiful and eye opening and has led to incredible spiritual enlightenment for me.
President Packer said- “For His own reasons, the Lord provides answers to some questions, with pieces placed here and there throughout the scriptures. We are to find them; we are to earn them. In that way, sacred things are hidden from the insincere.” (1983, The mystery of life)
I’ve appreciated this episode, and think it would be incredible to access some women who’ve delved into this topic as a follow up to this one.
Question: what painting is Scott referencing in this episode? I’d love to purchase several as gifts.
Yes, thank you for addressing this issue. I agree though with Haley that “the conversation relied so heavily on limited, cultural gender roles here in mortality, and then applied these to the divine.” I believe that we have far more to understand about the roles of women in general. Because as a church, we have not pursued more knowledge about our Mother in Heaven, we lack knowledge not only about her, but also about ourselves, especially about women. Alma 9:16-17 “…for it is because of the traditions of their fathers that caused them to remain in their state of ignorance.”
We haven’t even used the knowledge we have had. It has been pushed aside and hushed. Many prophets have said that the Lord expects us to use what we have in order for more to be given.
For me, it starts with the revelation that our Mother in Heaven is side by side with the Father. This clearly infers equal partnership. The church has yet to teach real equal partnership in marriage, meaning no hierarchy at all. As long as there is hierarchy, both spouses are limited in their growth and the Spirit is limited in reaching them. Full counsel together where each spouse has equal voice and power in decision-making, must happen. Both spouses are responsible for fully working together to discover the Lord’s counsel to them as given by the Spirit.
When we understand equal partnership/”side by side” we may begin to see the true role of Heavenly Mother. Then we may become enlightened regarding our own roles in mortality as well as for eternity.
As for who we pray to… is it possible that we have misunderstood Christ when He gave us the example of how to pray? He addresses our Father in Heaven. Father can be a reference to the origin of something, such as a father of gospel music, or the father of a certain method. Our origins are of a Father and a Mother. So when Christ spoke to the “Father,” in Luke 11:2, the footnote references “Elohim.” When looking up the meaning of Elohim, we find that it is the plural form of Eloah, meaning God. So, it could be possible that Christ was calling upon his parents, Father and Mother, his originators, addressing them as perfectly united, as perfectly one. So, by following Christ’s example to call upon the Father, are we really calling upon our originators, plural gods of Father and Mother, perfectly united? Just some rhetorical questions to open our minds and hearts to further restoration.
The change of the young women theme was a really powerful moment for me. From: “WE are daughters of Heavenly Father who loves us and we love Him” to: “I am a beloved daughter of Heavenly Parents.” Even though I’m a grown woman, this impacted me in a very deep way and I’m so grateful for the change so that our young women can see at an earlier age the role of both Heavenly Parents. ♡♡
While I appreciate what you’re trying to do, I completely disagree with the thoughts that Heavenly Mother is “home with the kids” while God is off at work with the older kids. There is absolutely no way a good mother would be so absent when her children are participating in such an important part of their eternal progression. She would be there every min!!! The world is filled with people, especially women, who are dying to know about their mother/mama. But She is here, and always has been. She’s been lost in translation. We have to stop “avoiding” Her because some stupid comments were made that She’s too sacred and our culture conformed to that. God the Father is the masculine half of God. He needs God the Mother to complete Him, and we need her to complete us. To avoid Her, is to dishonor Him.