Tony Overbay is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a Certified Mindful Habit Coach, and a popular motivational speaker. Tony regularly speaks at corporate training events, schools, and churches in formal and casual settings mixing humor, clinical experience, his Christian faith, and a wealth of personal stories gleaned from years of helping others achieve their goals.
This is part 2 of a 2-part podcast discussion. Listen to Part 1 here.


03:20 Tony shares experiences people have had with a very harsh stake president

12:25 Leaders or sometimes therapists hand people a list of things to do in order to overcome addictions or whatever it may be. But what happens when checking off those boxes doesn’t help?

13:50 Typically people go into the bishop’s office with the energy of shame. The bishop needs to diffuse that energy. People should also consider other people they can talk to besides the Bishop.

18:00 A good question to ask an individual is, “Who do you feel comfortable talking to?”

19:30 Tony breaks down shame and where it comes from

24:50 We feel shame when we are unable to overcome certain behaviors or addictions. However, we are approaching it in the wrong way. We need to dive deeper into why we are doing what we are doing.

25:40 Tony shares his own personal experience on being human and making mistakes. We need to give ourselves a break because we are all just human having human experiences.

29:20 Leadership and narcissism. Too often people are throwing out the word narcissist when dealing with a difficult person.

30:45 What is narcissism? Where does it come from?

38:20 There is a healthy level of narcissism in all of us

40:20 We most often see narcissism in a negative light. There is also normal healthy narcissism. That could also be called a normal healthy ego or your sense of self.

44:10 Pathological defensive narcissism

53:30 Jesus had a healthy ego. He had a full understanding of His identity.

55:45 Tony explains confabulation

1:02:00 Dealing with narcissistic leaders

1:04:15 Internal validation versus external validation

1:12:30 There isn’t much we can do about a narcissistic leader. What we can do is set our own boundaries.


Part 1 of this podcast
Unhealthy Ways We Seek Validation As Leaders | An Interview with Tony Overbay
The Bishop’s Strongest Tools to Help Addicts | An Interview with Tony Overbay
Tony’s podcasts
The Path Back: Overcoming Pornography
The Magnetic Marriage Course
Tony’s PDF of James Fowler’s Stages of Faith Development
Why Am I the Last Person to Know What to Do with My Life?
Am I the Narcissist? Exploring Narcissistic Traits and Tendencies
Read the TRANSCRIPT of this podcast
Listen on YouTube
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The Leading Saints Podcast has ranked in the top 20 Christianity podcasts in iTunes, gets over 500,000 listens each month, and has over 10 million total downloads as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help latter-day saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at

Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, J. Devn Cornish, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, DeAnna Murphy, Michael Goodman, Richard Ostler, Ganel-Lyn Condie, and many more in over 500 episodes.

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